University of North Texas Oral History Collection

Interview with William Carrico
Interviewer: Dr. Ronald E. Marcello, Randy Cummings
Place of Interview: Denton, Texas.
Date of Interview: March 19, 1984

Dr. Marcello:
This is Ron Marcello and Randy Cummings interviewing William Carrico for the North Texas State University Oral History Collection. The interview is taking place on March 19, 1984, in Denton, Texas. We are interviewing Mr. Carrico in order to get his personal reminiscences and experiences and impressions while he was a member of the football team at North Texas during that period of time when the university integrated its athletic program.

Mr. Carrico, to begin this interview just very briefly give me a biographical sketch of yourself. In other words, tell me when you were born, where you were born, your education -- things of that nature. Just be very brief and general.

Mr. Carrico:
I was born in Port Arthur, Texas, in 1937. We moved to Denton when I was six months old. My father was a chemistry professor at North Texas. I played athletics and went to school at Denton High School. I played at the University of Texas my freshman and sophomore years. At that time I got married, moved to North Texas, and played here my junior and senior years, which was the 1958 and 1959 seasons.

Marcello:
We talked about this off the record, but let's get this next bit of information on the record. When you were a student in Denton, either at the elementary, junior high, or high school level, you went to a segregated school, isn't that correct?

Carrico:
Yes.

Marcello:
At that time, as you look back upon that period, what could you detect as being the prevailing relations between the two races in Denton? Again, I'm perhaps asking an unfair question since that's a period of time when that sort of thing was probably farthest from your mind, but as you look back on it, what kind of a relationship do you recall existing between the two races in Denton?

Carrico:
The two races didn't intermingle at all. I was raised in a family that... my grandmother had a boarding house there close to North Texas. Georgia Franklin, who was a black lady, worked for them. I stayed there a lot, and I was raised and had a good friend named "Billy Mutt" Devereaux, who was a black man and who had two young men play for us in later years -- Donnie and Pete. Pete also played at North Texas.

Marcello:
What was Devereaux's middle name?

Carrico:
We called him "Billy Mutt."

Marcello:
"Billy Mutt?"

Carrico:
I was Bill and he was "Billy Mutt" (laughter).

Marcello:
How close of a friendship was there between you and Devereaux?

Carrico:
Well, we played together and had a good time. We felt no prejudices between black and white. It was just a friendship. The best friend I've got in the world now is Coach Collins, who's a black man. He was the head coach at Fred Moore.

Marcello:
What kind of an attitude toward race existed in your own family at that time? Let's say with your parents.

Carrico:
My parents taught me to treat people like I wanted to be treated. Certainly, there was a feeling of black and white, but we just felt that people were people, was the way I was raised. Possibly one of the reasons I came back to North Texas, other than being married and wanting to come home, was that I thought I would enjoy playing with Abner.

Cummings:
At that time, when you had this Devereaux as a good friend, was this a rare instance, or were there lots of white kids in Denton at that time who had no qualms about associating with black kids?

Carrico:
It was probably rare. We didn't go to the show with them. They stayed in their part of town, and we stayed in ours. When they went to the show, they had to sit in the balcony.

Marcello:
Where would the two of you usually play?

Carrico:
At my grandmother's house.

Marcello:
And why would Devereaux be there?

Carrico:
His mother was Georgia Franklin, who worked for my grandmother as a cook.

Marcello:
How long did you and Devereaux continue to play together before you more or less went your separate ways?

Carrico:
Probably when we got into elementary school, we didn't see each other much. Our families had been relatively close. Cornelia Franklin worked for my mother until she got sick.

Cummings:
Do you recall any instances between the two races that maybe conflicted with your upbringing and your attitudes toward blacks when you were a young child?

Carrico:
Oh, sure.

Cummings:
How did you face those? What did you think of those conflicts?

Carrico:
I don't know how I faced them as a child, but I know how I faced them as a man. I was taught that that somebody else's problem, that everybody's just a person. What other people said then and now don't bother me.

Cummings:
When you saw these things happening with other people and how they were treating blacks and the things that they were saying to them, did you ever talk about it with your peers or your parents as to why some whites treated blacks the way they did? In other words, was it that big of an issue with you as a young person?

Carrico:
No. Really, we didn't have much contact with the blacks in high school. I had friends that were black, but I never went to their house, and they never came to mine. In today's times Howard Clark is a real fine friend of our son. Jay's twenty-two. Howard comes to our house, and Jay goes to Howard's house. It's changed.

Marcello:
When you would go to downtown Denton, that is, the downtown that existed back during that period, would there be a co-mingling of the races in terms of the stores they patronized and things of that nature? Would you see lots of blacks downtown in the same store and so on?

Carrico:
No. The black people, of course, shopped there, but not very often would you... I never remember any problems.

After we integrated in football, I remember a lot of problems that we had at North Texas in traveling, and Abner and Leon had to stay at a different hotel. One day I was talking to Abner on the street -- I saw him walking from another hotel -- and I asked him why he was coming from that direction. He said, "Well, we stayed in a different hotel than ya'll do." I said, "Well, that's not right." He said, "But that's the way it is, and it's all right -- we'll play." This is the kind of attitude he had through the whole thing. It was a very adult attitude -- very mature.

Marcello:
As you were growing up, let's say in your junior high and high school years, did you ever have occasion to watch Fred Moore play football?

Carrico:
As a high school student, I watched them a little bit. When I came back and coached in Denton, I watched them every Saturday night.

Marcello:
What are your recollections from the caliber of black high school football when you saw it growing up in Denton?

Carrico:
Well, before Coach Collins came, they had good athletes, but it was not real disciplined. I remember the center turning cartwheels and somersaults on the way from the huddle to the ball. But they could play. They hit.

Marcello:
I guess there was a lot of really good football players that came out of Fred Moore during that period, were there not?

Carrico:
There were very, very good football players. Before 1955, I think some of them were older than eighteen (laughter). As a matter of fact, one of them had eight bars on his letter jacked. It was enjoyable and probably the Saturday night at the football game was where every black person in Denton went. It was a gathering spot and really enjoyable.

Marcello:
Would there be a pretty good mixing of the races even at the black football games? Would there be a substantial number of whites that would go to those black football games?

Carrico:
Yes. I would imagine that about 20 percent were white, and they enjoyed watching Fred Moore. They had a good football team, and it was exciting to watch them play.

Marcello:
Was there ever any problem between the two races at those football games?

Carrico:
No. They had problems during that time when they were playing Corsicana, but not in Denton. In Corsicana it wasn't a racist thing. It was our blacks and their blacks, as far as I know.

Cummings:
So the blacks at that time didn't mind the white kids coming over and watching their high school and kind of invading their territory, so to speak?

Carrico:
Oh, no. We had a lady that worked at Lone Star Gas that went to the black school to show them a few things about the new stoves and cooking and home economics, and she was treated like a queen. They treated white people just as nice as anybody. It was the white people that were prejudiced mainly and a few blacks that were prejudiced. But there wasn't any problem as long as you treated people the same.

Cummings:
So it was really just a basic "they're over there and we're over here," and on rare occasions each side crossed over to the other?

Carrico:
Basically, yes. There were always people that were prejudiced -- both ways.

Cummings:
When you were in senior high, when you were going to Denton and the schools were still segregated and you saw what kind of athletes they had over there -- good, bad, or otherwise -- did you ever question to yourself or to your peers what it would be like if you could get the best of each side to get together and form a team?

Carrico:
I just wondered if I could play with them (chuckle). They had a good program, and we didn't win much, and I just wondered if some of our people could play with their people, you know, if we were good enough or if they were good enough to play with us.

Marcello:
When you watched them play, did you notice whether or not their quality of equipment and so on was as good as what your team was using or if it was in such poorer condition than what yours was?

Carrico:
Their equipment was basically handed down from North Texas, the way I remember it. Now after 1955 it wasn't, but before then it was. In 1955 is when Coach Collins came.

Marcello:
A lot of their equipment came from North Texas State University... North Texas State College at that time?

Carrico:
Right.

Cummings:
It must have been pretty beat up and ragtag kind of stuff.

Carrico:
I know in East Texas the kids had to go out and pick peanuts with the coach, and then that would be their money for the equipment. They would have one basketball. But our athletic director at the time, Owen Spears, in 1955 was talking to Coach, and he had more equipment than anybody in the area; and if he wanted something, all he had to do was ask for it within reason. He never asked for anything that wasn't within reason.

Cummings:
Tell me briefly about your high school playing career -- how many years did you play varsity, what positions, any kind of honors, team records, anything you can recall about those days with the Broncos.

Carrico:
I lettered three years in four sports. I played football, basketball, baseball, and track. I think I was All-District twice in football, twice in baseball. I won the discus and the shot my junior and senior year. I went to the regional and was third place to the first and second place winners in the state tournament.

Cummings:
What kind of football teams did they have back then? You said they didn't win too often.

Carrico:
My sophomore year we didn't win many. I think in my senior year we were about 5-5. We were a small school with little members.

Cummings:
How many students were at Denton at that time?

Carrico:
About 600. We've got 1,850 now.

Cummings:
So they were taking about every boy that walked down the hall (chuckle).

Carrico:
Yes. That's the reason you could play four sports (chuckle).

Cummings:
Tell us the process of how you ended up at Texas. Were you being recruited by very many schools?

Carrico:
Rice, TCU, Texas, and several others... A&M. But I wanted to go to Texas. My father had graduated with his master's degree from Texas. For some reason I wanted to go there. It was a large school, but it was the place that I picked to play.

Cummings:
So did you get a scholarship?

Carrico:
Yes. My freshman and sophomore year, Ed Price was the head coach. At the end of my sophomore year Darrell Royal came, which was very enjoyable. Under Ed Price it was not. It was hard to leave the University of Texas, but, being married... Coach Mitchell had told me that if I laid out a year, I could have a scholarship at North Texas, so I came home.

Marcello:
What position were you playing at that time?

Carrico:
At that time we went both ways. I played offensive guard and nose guard, was what it was called then.

Cummings:
It sounds like you knew Coach Mitchell...

Carrico:
Oh, yes. I was raised in Denton.

Cummings:
So you knew him as a ...

Carrico:
... as a very fine man.

Cummings:
... as a person.

Carrico:
Super.

Marcello:
Describe what Coach Mitchell was like as a man.

Carrico:
Coach Mitchell was a gentleman. He loved kids. When you played for him, you played at your top -- give 110 percent. But you were treated as a gentleman. As a matter of fact, he fussed at us all the time for cussing. The people at North Texas -- Herb Ferrill, Fred McCain, Ken Bahnsen -- all treated you like gentlemen. At the University of Texas, they didn't under Price's reign. Under Royal's reign, they did.

Cummings:
Go into a little bit more detail as to why you left Austin and returned back home to Denton -- both athletically and personally.

Carrico:
You want that on tape (laughter)? Ed Price resigned, if I'm correct, about the third, fourth, or fifth ball game. I'm not sure. The assistant coaches wanted his job, and they were stabbing each other in the back; and everything they got mad at, they took it out on the players. It just was not a pleasant situation. I had made my decision to return home before the season was over.

Then I married my wife. We've been married twenty-seven years, so I guess it worked out all right. We felt more comfortable at home. Mother and Daddy would help us some if we had to have it. We didn't ask for it, but I knew that at North Texas I could go to school, play football, and work a little bit and make a living.

Cummings:
It must have been like night and day in going from the program at UT and under the coaches that they had down there and then coming back to North Texas State and a coach like Odus Mitchell.

Carrico:
I said when I left Texas that I would never play again.

Cummings:
For anybody?

Carrico:
For anybody. But when I saw the situation at North Texas, I played.

Marcello:
You say "when you saw the situation." What do you mean by that?

Carrico:
Well, the way that the coaches treated their kids. You were treated like a person.

Marcello:
You described Coach Mitchell awhile ago. Let me ask your opinion on something. Do you think that he was the right person to be in that situation when the first blacks entered the program, and if so, why? That's a highly speculative question, of course, because you weren't really there when Abner came, but give it a shot.

Carrico:
I think he was. And I think he was because of the reason that he'd give a person a chance. He was fair with you. I know that after, I guess, Abner's senior season "Bear" Bryant called and asked for North Texas to come play Alabama or Kentucky or wherever "Bear" was at that time. "Bear" said, "But you've got to leave your blacks at home." And Coach Mitchell laughed and said, "No, thank you." But Coach was a super man -- just kind of like having a second father to look after you. Different individuals and different individual coaches handle things different, but I think he was at that point probably the best in Texas.

Marcello:
And you seemed to indicate awhile ago that his personality and his character was also reflected in the assistant coaches.

Carrico:
Very much so. Herb Ferrill was gentle but got things out of you that needed to be gotten out of you with kindness and with a feeling to what you should do and not hollering at you much. Fred McCain was more or less the brains and the money man behind it. They were a real, real fine bunch of people to work with and to play for.

Cummings:
When you transferred up here from Austin, did you have to sit out a year like they do now?

Carrico:
Yes.

Cummings:
I take it that during that year you kind of got your enthusiasm back for playing football. You said that when you left Austin, you had no thoughts of every playing again. Describe what went on in your head as far as that year that you got to sit out and stand back from it and evaluate things.

Carrico:
I didn't play that year. I worked. I still missed football, and I saw that with my wife working and me playing football -- we got fifty-five dollars a month for rent and fifteen dollars a month for laundry -- I could make it better playing on scholarship than I could just working. So I actually went back into football as a business my junior and senior year.

Marcello:
We heard somewhere along the line that Coach Mitchell didn't take too kindly to players what got married. What do you know about that?

Carrico:
I don't know anything about it. We had eleven kids on our team that were married. I don't think that... as long as you could produce, Coach Mitchell didn't care whether you were married or not.

Cummings:
So your return to football was partially financial and partially renewed enthusiasm for the sport?

Carrico:
Yes. I missed it. I enjoyed very much playing at North Texas, but I also played it as a business.

Cummings:
So that year that you sat out would have been Abner's sophomore season. That was also his first year on the varsity. Tell us about what contact you had with the program, if at all. Did you got to the games? Did you go see the practices? Did you hang around the team to get to know them? What kind of contact did you have with the team that year?

Carrico:
None whatsoever. I went to school and worked. I saw them play one ballgame. I saw them play Youngstown, and I think they beat them about 60-0. I saw Abner run then.

Marcello:
What did you think of Abner Haynes as a football player from a spectator's standpoint?

Carrico:
Well, I knew that Abner could play. I learned more about Abner playing with him than I did as a spectator. Abner as a player... I played against... I believe it was Jay Arnett, who played for USC. He was the best back, as far as balance and being able to run and change directions, that I had played against. We played against Jack Pardee and John David Crow at Texas A&M. John David Crow was probably was good a back as there was in the state. Playing with Abner, he had all the abilities that all these people had. He wasn't as tough as Pardee or John David, but he probably was the best back I ever played with overall, offensively and defensively, or against.

Cummings:
Just describe some of his natural athletic abilities pertaining to football.

Carrico:
Well, Abner's greatest asset was that he didn't know how fast he was. Secondly, he could turn a ninety-degree angle and not lose a step of speed. An example of that was when we were playing... I was down field blocking for him, and I reached back to see where he was. Two people were coming up on defense, and I didn't know which one to block. I checked back again, and he was about thirty yards to my right and no one around. But his speed was so deceptive, and his ability to make a degree cut with losing no speed or even gaining speed was phenomenal.

Cummings:
I guess he used those abilities defensively, also.

Carrico:
Defensively. Also, one of Abner's greatest assets was that he knew how every blocker blocked. He knew whether you were an aggressive blocker or whether you were a power blocker... which way you were going to take a linebacker on a four-hole dive. He knew every offensive lineman's moves and thoughts. It was a great asset to him. He knew exactly how Charlie Cole blocked. He was probably there when Abner was a sophomore. He knew how I blocked. We discussed this one time when Vernon was sick. But he knew each blocker and what you could and couldn't do... and the defensive man across from you.

Cummings:
These are basically natural instincts, I assume, that he had.

Carrico:
Natural instincts and intelligence.

Marcello:
What kind of a personality did Abner have?

Carrico:
Abner was probably as nice a person in college as you wanted to be around. He was quiet. He was thoughtful. He treated you like he wanted to be treated. He was a very, very personable person.

Marcello:
How did he handle adversity when you were on the road? In other words, how did he handle the segregated situations that the team was bound to run into when it played road games in certain cities?

Carrico:
Well, he always calmed us down. He would tell us, "It's all right." Just like the situation with the motel, he said, "That's all right. That's the way it is. Don't worry about it." If I'm not mistaken, he and "Boody" King -- Leon -- had to eat in the kitchen at the hotel that we were eating at. He said, "That's all right." Then we went to Houston, and instead of going to a motel, the whole football team went on the train and stayed on the train so we could all sleep together and eat together.

Marcello:
What did you say Leon's nickname was?

Carrico:
"Boody."

Marcello:
What kind of person was Leon King? We've got to keep remembering that there were two of them that integrated the program.

Carrico:
Leon was not as personable as Abner. As far as I know -- I didn't ever live in the dorm -- Leon was quiet. Abner was the leader -- definitely the leader of the two. You would really have to ask somebody that lived with him. I don't know. I liked him, but he never said much.

Marcello:
What kind of a football player was Leon?

Carrico:
He was Abner's roommate (chuckle). He was a good kicker, but he was not near the talent that Abner was.

Cummings:
This is kind of jumping back for a second, but that year that you had to sit out after you transferred, Abner had already been in Denton for a year with the program. What had you heard just from other friends? What had you heard about Abner and what had you heard about the North Texas football program integrating? How did the fact that there were a couple of blacks over there in the program hit you and your friends at that time?

Carrico:
Well, of course, I heard all the stories about Abner when he first came here. Y'all know those stories.

Cummings:
What are some of those stories that you heard?

Carrico:
When Abner came up first as a freshman, the freshmen were running against the varsity, and Abner broke loose, and, of course, the white kids hollered, "Get the n*****!" About the second time he broke through, they hollered the same thing. About the third time he broke through, they said, "Look at that colored boy run!" This was consistent with all the football games. The people of Denton thought they had a "n*****" on the team. Of course, they didn't know Abner. About the third time he carried that ball, they said, "Boy we've really got us a good colored boy playing for us, don't we?" So it was a break in integration. Abner knew he had to face that. We faced it even as long as I... we were playing Hardin-Simmons, and Abner ran with the ball, and somebody from Hardin-Simmons hollered, "Get that n*****!" I looked up at the linebacker over me, and I said, "Hey, don't say that anymore." And some way he knew my name, and he said, "Bill, I didn't say it." I said, "When I hit you this next time, you tell whoever said that how much that hurt, and he won't say that anymore." That ended the "n*****" in that particular ball game. But we all loved Abner, and we respected him. But he gained our respect. It was a two-way street.

Cummings:
So by the time that you came back from Austin and were back in Denton, the atmosphere around North Texas and the football program... was it one of acceptance of Abner and Leon by this time?

Carrico:
Oh, yes. Definitely with the players.

Cummings:
What about the city people?

Carrico:
By that time those people had seen how good a player he was, plus the fact that they had heard from the kids that he was a gentleman. So he was pretty well accepted.

Marcello:
At the time that you entered the program, where were Abner and and Leon living? Do you know? Were they living on campus or off campus?

Carrico:
I don't know. I think they were living off campus, but I'm not sure. Well, I'm almost sure that they had an apartment in the black part of town.

Cummings:
I know you were probably down in Austin when all this occurred, but were you aware at all of the court order that came out of Sherman in the spring of 1956 that forced North Texas to open their doors to black undergraduate students?

Carrico:
No, I don't know a lot about that. I just know that it came out and that Abner walked on.

Marcello:
We feel that another central figure in this integration process was J.C. Matthews, who was president of North Texas at that time. Describe a student's recollections of J.C. Matthews from your perspective.

Carrico:
Well, really, I didn't know anything about Dr. Matthews as a student. I just knew that from family experience he was a good, solid man. He pretty well ran the ship.

Marcello:
He did not run the university by committee.

Carrico:
No, sir (laughter), not to my understanding -- a committee of one.

Marcello:
Do you have any idea as to whether or not he displayed any interest in the football team -- not necessarily in terms of whether it was winning or losing but in terms of how this whole process of integration was taking place?

Carrico:
I'm sure he was concerned with integration. I don't think Dr. Matthews knew a lot about the athletic program. I know he knew how much money they were spending, but he was concerned with -- I'm assuming this -- with athletics because that was going to be his integration tool.

Marcello:
Describe what Dr. Matthews looked like from a physical standpoint if you can remember him.

Carrico:
Dr. Matthews was probably 6'3" or 6'4" and, I guess, weighed 140-160 pounds -- a very distinguished looking man.

Marcello:
How did he dress?

Carrico:
I don't remember. He always had a suit and tie on, but I don't... he always looked neat to me. He's a fine person.

Marcello:
He did give one the impression of being a rather authoritarian figure around campus, did he not?

Carrico:
You know he meant what he said by just looking at him.

Cummings:
By the time that you joined the program over there in your junior year, they had Abner and I think Leon was still with the program. If I'm not mistaken, there were one of two blacks, also, on the freshman team by that time, were there not?

Carrico:
Billy Joe Christle was a sophomore when I came, and I believe a few other kids came out during spring training. I think a youngster named Price from Denton came out -- a black kid. Billy Joe was also an excellent athlete. At that time North Texas could take two blacks a year.

Marcello:
How do you know that? We're not doubting your word.

Carrico:
Well, Herb Ferrill told me. We had two blacks. The next year two blacks came in. They were allowed two blacks a year.

Cummings:
That was just a known fact among coaches and players and everybody concerned with the program...

Carrico:
And the coaches across the state.

Cummings:
... that no more than two would be on the program at any one time? Where do you think that quota of two evolved from?

Carrico:
I don't have any idea. I just knew they were going to take integration slowly. It was a mandate that the blacks could play, of course, but two scholarships would be given to blacks a year.

Marcello:
Incidentally, we were not doubting your word because when you go back and look at the annuals and examine the freshman team, that's exactly what you see -- two each year up until about 1959 or 1960, I guess. Then it seems as though the coaches got a little braver, or somebody got a little braver, and you see a few more than two being recruited.

Cummings:
Was that quota ever discussed among the players?

Carrico:
No. Nobody really cared, as far as we were concerned, whether Abner and Leon were black or not. We had one of the closest-knit football teams that I've been associated with in all the years I've been playing. I played at a small bit of pro and college and coaching, and it was the closest... that was the secret to that football team. And possibly the closeness was gathered because we had a black. Of course, there were eleven kids, as I told you, on there that were married. We were working for something. We were rated sixteenth in the nation at one time, so we had a pretty fair football team.

Marcello:
What role does Vernon Cole play in all this? What do you remember about Vernon Cole?

Carrico:
I loved him like a brother, and it hurt when he died.

Marcello:
What kind of a leader was he?

Carrico:
Super. He controlled the football team. He talked in the huddle, and we listened. He would tell us something, and we felt like if he called it, it would work. A lot of his plays weren't called from the sidelines at that time, but Fred had told him exactly what to play, and he called them in in certain situations. Vernon was close to blind, and he just threw at the green blurs (chuckle). When he went to the pros, he got contacts and he could see. But Vernon was probably the best of the bunch.

Marcello:
What kind of relationship developed between Abner and Vernon?

Carrico:
Very close. Vernon was another top-notch person, and Abner was a top-notch person. I think they had a close relationship. We all knew where we stood.

Marcello:
I guess that was quite a contrast to see Abner and Vernon together, since Vernon was blond and fair-skinned and so on.

Carrico:
Yes. It was enjoyable.

Cummings:
Was Vernon probably the first white player... of course, you weren't here when they were both freshmen, but from what you've heard in later years, was Vernon probably the first white player to become close friends with Abner?

Carrico:
I don't know. I don't know who was.

Marcello:
By the time that you came on the team, would it be safe to say that most of the racist remarks and racist attitudes and so on had been shoved way into the background? Did you hear much of it when you entered the team -- from your own teammates?

Carrico:
No, everybody, I think, respected him for a person and his ability at that time -- our own players. Of course, we did when we went on the road. Abner and Oscar Robertson were real close friends, and when Oscar came to Denton to play, Abner would take him out; and when we went to Cincinnati, Oscar would take out Abner.

Cummings:
Were Abner and Leon the first blacks that you played with at the varsity level?

Carrico:
Yes. There were no blacks at the University of Texas.

Cummings:
By the time you did join the program over here as a junior, I guess that was of no concern to you that there were some blacks on the team, that you would be a teammate of a black?

Carrico:
I enjoyed it. I thought it would be fun.

Marcello:
Awhile ago you mentioned in passing the incident that occurred in Houston concerning the decision of the players to sleep on the train. Go into as much detail as you can remember from that situation.

Carrico:
We didn't have a whole lot of say-so on where we slept. I was a co-captain both years. We were concerned that Abner and Leon had to sleep in a different place. Of course, it may have been a coaches' decision -- it was a coaches' decision -- but also it was to get a little more closeness to the team to let us sleep on the train. We couldn't get a hotel to take Abner or Leon, either -- I mean, no blacks. We were proud to sleep on that train. We felt like we were all at least staying together.

Marcello:
How did that train come into being? In other words, was that train more or less specifically put together to take North Texas students and followers to that game in Houston?

Carrico:
I think it was on the football team. The train was hooked on, and the cars were left in Houston, and that's where we stayed. We walked across railroad tracks to go eat, and the game busses picked us up. But we stayed there on the sidetrack and spent the night in Houston.

Cummings:
Maybe looking back, was it perhaps a little hypocritical of the players to show this kind of feeling of being a unit and having closeness on the road -- for example, the train trip and so forth -- and then when they got back here in Denton, the black players stayed by themselves on the other side of town and socialized among themselves, and there weren't any great moves to get them closer to the school as far as maybe staying in the dorm or something?

Carrico:
I don't remember when they started staying in the dorm. I think they had the option, maybe, their senior year, and they chose not to.

Marcello:
But it is true that Denton was still essentially segregated at that time, was it not?

Carrico:
Oh, yes. Completely, yes. I don't know if it was hypocritical. I was married. I went home. They went home. I had no feelings toward it. When Abner came to the dorm, he was accepted, and he visited up at the dorm a lot. All the basketball players and everybody accepted him. He was just part of us. But it was strange to come from a segregated society into this, but I didn't have any great feelings at all.

Marcello:
When you played on the road, did the white players have to endure any slurs across the line of scrimmage from the opposing team and so on relative to the fact that you had blacks on your team?

Carrico:
I only know of one situation -- when we played Hardin-Simmons -- and each person on our team felt the same way. There were a lot of situations where Abner got called a "n*****," but when we heard them, we went to battle. We ended up in two complete brawls that year -- cleared the benches over that situation.

Cummings:
Discuss those -- where they were, what exactly caused them to your best recollection.

Carrico:
I only remember where one of them was. One of them was in Saint Louis. They had a black player, and we had a black player, but it really didn't boil down to the black players. It ended up that one of our backs got in a fuss with somebody else, and I think it was just the closeness that brought us all out there, but we ended up in it. I think the other one possibly was caused by people calling Abner a n*****.

Cummings:
Was the other one possibly the one in San Jose?

Carrico:
No. That was the one before I got there. That was his sophomore year. I was not guilty of being involved (laughter).

Marcello:
We've heard it from one of the persons that we've interviewed that in his opinion Memphis was the worst city to visit. In other words, even though there might have been racial slurs mentioned in the other cities, there seemed to be a certain meanness or nastiness about it in Memphis. Do you recall?

Carrico:
I didn't ever go to Memphis, but I've heard the stories. Yes, it was the worst by far. The other towns were just personalities. This was the only town, I think.

Cummings:
The frictions and the problems that you encountered on the road... were they primarily... I'm talking about Saint Louis and the other places. Were they primarily from the opposing team on the field, or was it from fans in the stands or a combination?

Carrico:
I think the only place they had any problems with the stands was in Memphis. We never, that I can recall, had any problems with the people in the stands. They would recognize what an athlete Abner was. They respected him just like we respected Oscar Robertson. Why would you holler something ugly to Oscar Robertson when he came to North Texas to play -- the tremendous athlete that he was and the gentleman that he was?

Cummings:
What does that say to you as far as the role of athletics in creating a bond between the races, particularly at this period of time that we're talking about -- the mid 1950's?

Carrico:
Well, I think it was the tool that was used in the understanding that when the kids got out there to play, some blacks were better and some whites were better and that the opportunities were there for contact. The whole nation learned through athletics that they could live together -- blacks and whites could live together.

Marcello:
This is kind of shifting gears, but as you mentioned, your father was a member of the North Texas faculty at that time. Do you recall how he viewed the coming of blacks to North Texas? When I say "he," I guess I'm referring to the views of the faculty. Do you recall what the views of the faculty were toward the coming of blacks?

Carrico:
No, I can only tell you what my father thought. I don't know what the faculty thought.

Marcello:
What did your father think?

Carrico:
My daddy was tickled to death. He followed the North Texas athletics for forty-one years. An interesting story about Abner... Daddy went to every ball game that we played, but he couldn't go to Cincinnati. So he went up to Coach Mitchell and told him that he'd backed him for some thirty years and could he possibly be the faculty representative. Coach Mitchell let him. Daddy put on his best suit, new pair of shoes, and his best hat and walked up and sat by Abner, and Abner was dressed better than he was (chuckle). Abner knew the role he was playing.

Marcello:
Correct me if I'm wrong. Was your father the... wasn't he on the Athletic Council for a long time?

Carrico:
He may have been. He was the head of the Chemistry Department and very interested in athletics. I don't know that he was ever on the council.

Cummings:
During your junior year, when you first got out there and you first got into the fall workouts and got back into playing and so forth and so on, describe Abner's talents then as you remember them and then compare them to where he was when he graduated and eventually went into professional ball. Was there that much difference, or had he pretty much refined his talents by the time you got into playing with him?

Carrico:
Well, as best I can remember, as a junior he was very, very, very talented, but as the maturity came in his senior year, he... well, it's just a year's growth in a person's life, and in any athlete's life he's going to gain a bunch in a year. Abner was much better at the end of his senior year year than he was when I came. Actually, it would have been his sophomore spring training, and then as a pro he gained much more knowledge of the game and how to use his body. When he went up to the pros, he was 168 pounds, and then he played at around 200 pounds or 190 pounds. He was much quicker at 168 pounds than he was at 200 pounds.

Cummings:
What about the "Li'l Abner" nickname? I've seen that in several cartoons and stories during his playing days over here. Was that a common tag for him when you became a member of the team as a junior?

Carrico:
Some people called him that. We called him "Butch." That's what his daddy called him.

Marcello:
Yes, that name was his old Denton name, I think.

Cummings:
So you guys on the team called him "Butch" more than you did "Li'l Abner"?

Carrico:
I didn't ever call him that. I either called him Abner or "Butch."

Marcello:
Did you detect any changes in his personality between his junior and senior year, or was he the same person all the way, so far as you were concerned?

Carrico:
Just maturity. His consistency of getting along with people was just tremendous.

Cummings:
What role did his personality play in making this whole transition period a relatively smooth one?

Carrico:
Well, if he had had a different type of personality -- a prejudicial situation or prejudicial personality -- he wouldn't have made it. He could not have fought sixty white kids everyday, all day long. His personality and his ability let him gain respect quickly.

Marcello:
Let me ask you this. Suppose Leon King had been the first black to come. Do you think the whole process would have been different?

Carrico:
Well, of course, that's just a guess. Leon didn't have the ability that Abner had. Leon was a good person. The first person to integrate was going to have to shine.

Marcello:
He was going to have to be an excellent player as well as have the personality that you described a while ago.

Carrico:
He had to sell people that there wasn't a "n*****" out there, that it was a "colored man," as we called them then. There's a difference.

Cummings:
I guess what I'm trying to say is he had the perfect combination of good talent plus the personality to make this whole thing work.

Carrico:
That's the way I feel. It's just my own personal opinion, but I think it's the feeling of everybody else on that football team. But I can't say it for them. Living through it, it's what I think. I know it's what Vernon thought.

Cummings:
What kind of a relationship did Abner and Leon have among themselves by the time they were juniors in your opinion?

Carrico:
I don't know. They got along. They lived together. It always seemed from the viewpoint that I looked at that they got along fine.

Cummings:
Were they as close with themselves as they were individually with other people at that time?

Carrico:
I would think so. I would think they were... they were the only two blacks there. Then Billy Joe came later, of course. Billy Joe Christle was a gentleman and probably pound-for-pound the toughest football player I've seen. He was talented, but he was small.

Cummings:
We've heard that on some of the airplane trips and perhaps the train trips and so forth that Abner was pretty much a cut-up. Tell us some of the things you remember about him doing on those trips.

Carrico:
He was just fun. Our wives, of course, went along when we played the Sun Bowl. They came later, but on the way back, he cut up, and we played cards together. He was just fun. He was accepted.

Marcello:
I understand that he and Leon would entertain by singing on the planes and this sort of thing?

Carrico:
Yes, (chuckle) they did. We had a good time. Bill Kirby was a cut-up. Abner was a cut-up. We had good times.

Cummings:
I think you mentioned a little while ago that Abner knew exactly how you were going to block -- which direction and so forth and so on. Did he have a lot of discussions with you guys along the line to help him to do some of the things he did with the football?

Carrico:
No. He didn't tell that until Charlie and...

Cummings:
Years later, huh?

Carrico:
... Myself... we were up at Vernon's when he was sick, and we were discussing it, and he told us about it.

Cummings:
So while you were on the team, he never...

Carrico:
... he never discussed it. No, he studies. He studied the game a lot harder that a lot of us did.

Marcello:
For the record, you were mentioning this conversation that took place when Vernon was sick. Did that occur up in Pilot Point?

Carrico:
No, in Waco.

Marcello:
And where was Abner at the time?

Carrico:
He was in Waco.

Marcello:
But, I mean, where... he was playing ball at that time?

Carrico:
He may have been through by then, but he had come to visit Vernon.

Marcello:
But again, I think that says something about the relationship that existed between the two.

Carrico:
Sure. Vernon was in a coma, of course, and wasn't in the conversation, but Charlie and Abner and I were talking outside the hospital room. There was a relationship of how close Abner was. He went the extra mile to go see somebody when they were sick.

Cummings:
One thing we haven't talked about yet was the... what kind of differences did you see in just the pure talent of college football as it was played in your first two years at UT and how you saw it played up here at North Texas?

Carrico:
Depth.

Cummings:
Was there a noticeable difference between the levels that the two universities played?

Carrico:
Not between the first two teams. As far as the difference between the University of Texas and North Texas was concerned, North Texas had approximately eleven kids that could play with the University of Texas. And then after that, it dropped off significantly where Texas had the depth. There may have been more talent at Texas, but with Abner... and we had a bunch of steady people at North Texas. There was probably more talent at the University of Texas on the first team, but we could have played with them. But we couldn't go with their second bunch.

Cummings:
Was there any doubt in your mind, then, that by the time Abner was a senior, he was a major college player?

Carrico:
He was the best back I ever played with or saw, as I said before, as far as overall ability and ability to do everything. There were some people who had better strength than he did, but not all together.

Cummings:
What kind of notoriety was Abner and the North Texas team getting by that senior year?

Carrico:
Well, of course, we had worked up to sixteenth in the nation, so we were getting some coverage from Dallas and Fort Worth and from the area. Abner was getting a lot of coverage. Abner was a Time All-American. The Harris rating had made him an All-American. He was well-known.

Cummings:
Do you recall during those last two seasons any stories in the newspapers or magazines perhaps centering around his presence at North Texas from a purely integration aspect?

Carrico:
There was one or two that mentioned that he was the first black to play in the State of Texas. But it was pretty well-handled here. There were no problems, so nobody had too much to write about except he was a heck of a player.

Cummings:
Were those stories just here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, or were they national level? Do you recall?

Carrico:
No, I don't remember anything nationally. When we'd play in a different town, of course, they'd write about Abner. When we played in El Paso, they wrote about Abner. In Cincinnati the newspapers up there... of course, Cincinnati was integrated, so it wasn't any real big deal.

Marcello:
I guess many of the Valley teams were integrated by the time North Texas entered the conference.

Carrico:
Yes, nearly all of them that I remember. The only people that ever said anything much at all were the people who didn't have black players.

Cummings:
When you look back on that time period and all this, do you feel like North Texas was a pioneer?

Carrico:
They were the first. Of course, it was just a thing that happened. We were the first school in the state to accept black athletes or to have black kids in the school -- state-supported college.

Cummings:
But at that time, perhaps they didn't really consider themselves as being the first. It was just something that was occurring, and they had to contend with it.

Carrico:
Yes, that's true. And they were glad to contend with it when they had Abner.

Cummings:
I think we mentioned a little while ago about President Matthews. What role in making this transition a smooth one did he play?

Carrico:
I'm sure that he had to talk to the rest of the faculty and control the situation in the classes. There could have been problems in classes. I'm sure there were at first until people understood, and not particularly a black but with Abner -- what Abner was and what he could do. He treated people in the classroom just like he treated everything else. He was quiet and he wasn't outgoing in the classroom, and people started to respect him. He was in no way a show-off. He never spoke about his abilities to play or how good a back he was.

Marcello:
I understand that President Matthews also kept a pulse on what was going on on campus by teaching a class. Even as president, he taught a class at that time.

Carrico:
Yes, sir. I don't know that he did, but I'm sure that he probably did. He was a good president.

Cummings:
Would this whole process have gone as smoothly as it did with perhaps another different man in that president's seat -- a man with a different type of personality than J.C. Matthews?

Carrico:
Yes, if he was for integration. If he was against it, no. But that's just my opinion on the thing. I think Dr. Matthews worked hard at running the university and every aspect of it. He was involved in every aspect of it from what I understand.

Marcello:
Going back to what you have said previously in the interview, Dr. Matthews was a decisive man, and if he had decided that integration was going to work and that there would be no trouble, then he would do everything possible to see that it occurred that way.

Carrico:
Yes, sir. And he did do that.

Cummings:
Did President Matthews show much outward interest in the football program while you were here those last two years, as far as coming to practices, going to games, being seen at the games?

Carrico:
I'm sure he came to the in-town games. We never saw him at practice that I can recall. He had his job as president of the university, and Coach Mitchell had his job of running that football team. I think he kind of let people, as long as that program was going good, do their own thing.

Cummings:
I know we've talked a little bit about your career after North Texas State off the record, but just for this interview's purpose, update us on what you did in athletics after you got out of North Texas, as far as professional ball, coaching, and so forth.

Carrico:
Well, I went to Edmonton, Canada and spent about a month-and-a-half playing pro ball. We played in a game where there was snow and sleet and fertilizer. I don't know what kind of lime it was, but in Calgary we got burned on the back of our legs. I did and so did the other fair-skinned kids... my sides. At that point I decided not to continue, and I came back home.

I went back to North Texas and finished my industrial arts degree and coached in Lufkin one year. I came back to Denton and started in the junior high ranks. I coached for a while and then was an assistant principal for a while. Now I'm the athletic director.

Cummings:
Did you ever coach at Denton High School?

Carrico:
Yes. I was an assistant coach there for fourteen years. I was never the head coach.

Cummings:
When were you promoted to the AD's office?

Carrico:
Five years ago. I was an assistant principal at one of the junior highs. This job came open. I applied and fortunately I got it.

Cummings:
I know this is another topic that we've talked about off the record, but relate or compare the integration transition at North Texas while you were there as a student to Denton High School in the mid 1960's.

Carrico:
Well, the integration at North Texas was a voluntary situation, as far as Abner was concerned. Abner wanted to be there. He came there and walked on. With integration in the high schools, the school board or whoever you want to think closed Fred Moore. It was a court order that we would integrate. We integrated completely. Athletics, I think, played a huge part in integration simply because the kids got to contest their skills and abilities -- the white kids and the black kids against each other. They learned real quickly that they were equal. We had a few kids that were white and black that were both bigoted. Our main concern at that time was when a white and black got in a fight at school, but now it's just a black and a black or a white and a black. It's not really thought of as this group's going to gang up against this one. They're just more or less individuals now. It went smoothly.

Cummings:
You were back, I guess, in Denton in 1964, weren't you?

Carrico:
Yes.

Cummings:
What was your impression of all the notoriety that SMU and Houston received some eight, nine, ten years after North Texas had integrated. They received a lot of notoriety for their breaking the color line athletically in 1964 or 1965 or along in that area. What was your reaction to all that?

Carrico:
I just felt like they were a little bit late. It had been tried. North Texas did it, and when SMU or Houston did it, it was big time. We were not big time then or now. That's just something that the bigger universities are going to get.

Cummings:
I've had several people say that they just thought it was kind of funny that they did it a decade later, and they were getting all this notoriety for it.

Carrico:
They were starting out and being the pioneers when it had already been done. To us it was funny. We'd been there a long time ago.

Cummings:
We don't have any other questions. We do appreciate your time and all your thoughts and recollections and everything. Thank you.

Carrico:
You bet.

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