University of North Texas Oral History Collection

Interview with Gladys P. Crawford
Interviewer: Paulette Hasier
Place of Interview: Denton, Texas
.Date of Interview: September 29, 1995

Ms. Hasier:
This is Paulette Hasier interviewing Mrs. Gladys P. Crawford for the University of North Texas Oral History Program. The interview is taking place on September 29, 1995, in Denton, Texas. I am interviewing Mrs. Crawford in order to obtain her recollections concerning desegregation at North Texas State College.

Mrs. Crawford, I would like to start with some general background of where you were born and your education, some of your employment if you could, please?

Mrs. Crawford:
I was born in Denton County, a little place called Plainview Community, which is northwest of Krum. I grew up on a farm. I developed a love for nature and life, and I guess that led to where I am today and in the Department of Biological Sciences. I actually attended what was then North Texas State Teacher's College [now the University of North Texas] as an undergraduate and as a graduate student. My bachelor's degree was in biology with a minor in chemistry. I did my graduate work in biology, actually microbiology, and I did an educational psychology-type minor and got certified to teach, which means I have an all-level teaching certificate from the State of Texas.

My first year of employment was in Fort Worth at Our Lady of Victory College, and it was a wonderful experience. It was a Catholic school. I was actually going to teach just one semester, and then I was going to come back and do graduate work at North Texas State Teacher's College. This was the bachelor's and graduate degree. I was replacing a nun who failed her French, and her mother, unfortunately, passed away during this time.  She had to take a whole year off, so I was down there [at Our Lady of Victory College] for nine months. It was a wonderful opportunity. I had to learn to stand on my own two feet. I was the science department, and I had pre-clinical nursing majors from St. Joseph's Hospital. I taught them chemistry and microbiology.

Hasier:
So, you basically lived in the Denton County area...

Crawford:
Yes

Hasier:
... All your life?

Crawford:
Yes. After that year of teaching -- it's interesting -- I came back to North Texas after earning my bachelor's degree. I was introduced as a member of the faculty without knowing I was on the faculty, and I became employed here with a bachelor's degree. But then I went ahead and did a graduate degree, and I've actually taught at North Texas ever since.

Hasier:
Now you mentioned that you grew up on a farm, sort of a rural background. What were your parents' and your family's attitudes toward blacks in general?

Crawford:
My parents were unique in that they were not highly educated people, but they respected life, and particularly the color of a person's skin did not make any difference. Out on the farm, we had a workhouse where a black man and his wife lived and did labor on their farm, but they were always paid. They were always transported if they needed medical care, if they needed to go to the grocery store, things like that. So that was the situation I was in.

My family situation is a little unique, especially my grandparents. On my mother's side, my grandparents met each other in an orphanage in Austria, and they got married and came over here [United States] on their honeymoon, and they stayed. So I have, I guess, the Austrian background there.

The community in which I grew up was a very small community. Obviously, it was, as I mentioned, out in the country, and we had a little red brick schoolhouse just like you can imagine in a picture, and all grade levels went there. By the time I got there, the high school students had been transported to University of
North Texas campus, as we call it now, but it was the Laboratory School or Demonstration School back then. So I went through grade school there [at the red brick schoolhouse], and then I went to North Texas Laboratory School and graduated from the Laboratory School.

Hasier:
Did you have any black students attending this school with you, or was it an all-white school, this one?

Crawford:
You mean the...

Hasier:
The one-room schoolhouse.

Crawford:
The one-room school. I do not remember any, and the truth is that there were not many people on the farm then, because we did not have as much sophisticated machinery as we have today. Farmers did not plow as much land. We did not need as many people there. I don't recall many black children in the community,
actually, and I don't recall many Hispanic people in the community.

Hasier:
When you came to school in Denton, when you were going to high school here at North Texas, which was North Texas State Teachers College at the time, did you notice in the Denton community that there were separate facilities for blacks and whites, or were you aware of that at the time?

Crawford:
I think it was something we all grew used to, and I'm pretty sure it was here. Yes, it was here. I remember a bunch of us, about fifteen of us, from Texas decided to go up to New York and work in a summer camp. We rode a bus, and on the way up and on the way back, there were just a few black people on that bus. And coming back, I recall there was really a nice black gentleman. We had scheduled stops. This is, as I remember, about two nights and two or three days-this long trip on a bus. Everytime we stopped we had to find something to eat and get back on the bus real fast. I remember when we got into, I believe, Oklahoma, and maybe beforehand, particularly, this [black] gentleman could not go into the restaurant. We had to bring him a sandwich out so he could eat. I do remember that there were separate rest rooms for whites and blacks, and there were separate water fountains for whites and blacks. I believe that was [the case] in Denton, also.

Hasier:
Did you have any feelings about this, or was this something you just you knew that it was there, and you accepted it? Was it just part of the culture, or did you question it at all?

Crawford:
I think you get used to things that a happen every day, and at a young age I didn't question it. I got to wondering, as I got older, why; and I still didn't know why. But I was really glad when the move was established to integrate because these are humans, these are people, they have feelings just like we do,
they needed education. The world's better with more education, and I really approved of that.

Hasier:
So did you have, when you younger, any store owners or any business dealings with anybody that was in the black community?

Crawford:
Not as merchants. You will have to remember that the little community in which I grew up had one little grocery store (chuckle), and actually my uncle owned
that. When I was in high school, I remember working for him for a whole eight- to ten- hour day for $1.75 total pay. Big deal, huh? But the blacks would come
in, and what they would usually want while working on the farm was some baloney and some crackers, and I learned to slice that stuff off a big, ol' hunk; you
didn't get packaged meats back in those days. I learned to slice that stuff off a big old hunk, and I could pretty well get it a fourth-pound or a half-pound -- whatever they wanted.  Then we would just throw some crackers in, they'd buy a cold drink, which was much bigger then, and for about a nickel a drink, I
think, and that was their lunch.  That was their dinner at night, something like that. That was probably the most contact I had with blacks because they weren't  in the school system I was in. There were just maybe a couple of them on our farm and that sort of thing.

Hasier:
Then you stated that you went to UNT, and since we are discussing integration at UNT, you obviously didn't come into contact with any students when you were in college, either. Let's move on to actually the integration at UNT or at North Texas State College as it was known at the time. I mentioned to you earlier there was a court case, Sweatt v. Painter , and that established that black undergraduate students could attend a college if they did not have a college of their own that would meet their needs. We were talking about individuals, and I mentioned Tennyson Miller. Did you have any contact with Tennyson Miller, or did you know that Tennyson Miller was the first black graduate student at UNT?

Crawford:
I remember the name, but I didn't have any contact with the student, Tennyson Miller. But I do remember reading in what is now the (North Texas] Daily-I believe we called it the Campus Chat back then -- and I do remember reading that he was here. The name was really about all I knew.

Hasier:
There was a court case filed by Joe Atkins, claiming that North Texas State College was denying him admission to the college because of his race. Do you recall anything about the court case involving Atkins?

Crawford:
Again, I remember the name, but I didn't know the individual. I just read it in the Campus Chat. There was really no reason to get involved with this because
we were just reading it and hearing it.

Hasier:
So there was no meetings with faculty through Matthews or any of the administration about the fact that there may possibly be steps taken to integrate the college?

Crawford:
Oh, if you're referring to that, yes, I think Dr. Matthews did have some meetings. I was not involved in them, but, as far as I know, there were some meetings. I think what they were trying to do eventually was to prepare us for integration.

Hasier:
From what I understand and what I've read in my research, Dr. Matthews had been planning on doing a gradual desegregation plan. We are going to start mentioning some of the undergraduate students that started to attend after the Atkins case was settled in 1955. I did mention Mrs. Sephas. She was an education major and came here in 1956. Do you remember anything about Mrs. Sephas?

Crawford:
Again, I remember the name. I don't think I ever had her as student.  In fact, then I was teaching the major courses, the courses that biology majors take. We had special courses for the people in education, for their undergraduate degree, and I was not involved in teaching those. But I do remember the name.

Hasier:
Okay, well, why don't we go onto... do you remember your first black students?

Crawford:
Oh, yes. Abner Haynes and Leon King were in the same class, and, as I recall, it was a botany class. They were football players, and they were really very likable people. Abner was a fun-loving person, and he went on to play pro football. Leon was a quieter person, so I didn't feel like I knew him as well. But they always went places together; they always sat by each other in class. They were very nice young men, and I enjoyed them very much. They used to come to the office, and we would sit and chat and really just enjoyed each other. And as far as I could tell, when they came into my classroom, nothing changed. They were just the same.

Hasier:
So you don't feel that the students in your classroom, in your experience, had any problem with attending your class with black students?

Crawford:
Absolutely not. In fact, I think the students were very pleased and really didn't see that they were darker in skin color than the average student.

Hasier:
There were no conflicts, but the blacks stayed together in their part of the room, and the whites stayed... was there any kind of mixing? Did people interact with them [Haynes and King] in the class?

Crawford:
Oh, yes, I think so. I gave the lectures. I did not teach the lab. They would mix more in the lab because it's a more informal setting. But in lectures, of course, they would just come and sit down, and the teacher starts lecturing, and when it's over they get up and leave. But I saw students speak to them before
class, and after class and walking down the halls, the students spoke to them. I was really pleased that things went as smoothly as they did. I didn't see any problems.

Hasier:
Going back to the smooth transition, do you remember any of the opinions of the biology faculty or faculty in general toward this move to integration?

Crawford:
At that point, I was the youngest member of the faculty, and I remember talking to some of the older faculty. Their attitude was that they were just pleased that these young people had a chance to get an education. They thought it was just wonderful, and, of course, I did, too.

Hasier:
So we have covered the students and the faculty. How about the Denton community in general? Were you living in Denton at the time?

Crawford:
Yes, my husband's a professional man here. He was a dentist. He practiced dentistry here, and he did have some black patients. They needed dental work done, too. I've gone to numerous community meetings, and I saw no problem with integration. The people, as far as I could tell, were very receptive to them [blacks], and that's the way it should be, in my opinion.

Hasier:
We mentioned President Matthews and the integration at North Texas. I'd like to explore a little bit of Matthews's character, because I believe that had a lot to do with why the integration went so smoothly. Could you give me maybe some examples of what you would distinctly call his character?

Crawford:
I think I was in a unique position. Dr. Matthews's son Les, now Dr. Lester Matthews, is very well-known in his field, and he was in my high school graduating class. At that point we had parties in the Matthews's home, and they were just really sweet, nice people. I remember that President Matthews and his family lived on campus. There was a big house on Hickory Street. It's now where, I think, Industrial Arts or Industrial Technology is housed. And then, of course, later, they moved to the president's home.

President Matthews was a nice person. In fact, I mentioned a few minutes ago that I had a minor in educational psychology and got a teaching certificate. He was one of my professors one time.  So I knew him in several different lights, and also he was my president.

There were a lot of people that probably thought he didn't have all the visions he should have, but I thought he did an excellent job, particularly with this integration.  He was very methodical; he thought things through; he tried to make people understand things. I really believe that he was the man for the time because he saw that integration proceeded, and yet he did not push things or push attitudes. He just provided a framework where we could all "grow." And I thought he did a great job.

Some people thought of him as being an iron-clad leader, and if you think of him as being an iron-clad leader, I think you have to go back to the [department] chairs and that sort of thing then, because it was always a one-man decision. Now we have committees. Good or bad (chuckle), we have committees, and they take a lot of time away from what faculty need to do with students and perhaps in group teaching and research, but we do have committees. He [Matthews] was pretty much the one that sought out attitudes among faculty and also staff. He was vitally involved in this integration, which I think is excellent.

Hasier:
And he's [Matthews] been often referred to as a "benevolent despot" in the way he led the school. Now you did mention that he sought out the attitudes of the faculty. Did he do that through meetings, or how would he seek out?

Crawford:
Way back in that time, we had some meetings, certainly not to be compared to the large number of meetings we have now. But I remember one thing that was going on when President Matthews was here. We had a formal night for faculty, and we'd all put on our long dress or tux, and we went over to Marquis Hall, and we got to know each other. That's something unusual because now the faculty is so big, and we don't even know sometimes who's in the next building or what they're thinking or what's going on over there.  Today a lot of things that we as faculty know, we read in the Daily. But while we had on our long dresses and the men their tuxedos, we'd stand around and talk and "solve all the problems" for the campus. President and Mrs. Matthews were there, and we get to know them in a more informal way. I just think it was a nice relationship, and I think his handling of the situation led into this real neat integration.

Hasier:
You were also mentioning the press, and I do want to go into that a little bit. We were speaking of Matthews and how he handled the press and, in particular, its coverage of integration.

Crawford:
I've heard a lot of my international students say that our press doesn't tell the truth here now. Whether that's true or not, I won't be the judge. But I do think the press did not look for as much adverse information years ago as they do now. Nice, happy stories don't make headlines like some of the bad stories do. So I think the press was a kinder press, a gentler press, back then. I think the press should be commended because they many times handled a situation with soft touches. I think that a lot of people have a tendency to believe that everything in the newspaper is true, which may or may not be true, and the press had something to do with a more peaceful integration-here on campus especially. I felt the press was kind to us at North Texas at that point.

Hasier:
Well, I have done some research, and James Rogers, who was the head of the press for UNT, said that he had spoken with Matthews, and Matthews had stated that he didn't want negative press. Also, he didn't want too much good press because he felt that may bring in the bad element to try to stir something up.

Crawford:
Yes, Jim Rogers was a perfect person to make that comment because he was in journalism, and later he was the vice-president here on campus -- a wonderful man -- and he's written a beautiful history about North Texas. It was written years ago and still is an important document around here. He would be in the position to know that, and he probably said it correctly. I'm not aware of that particular aspect.

Hasier:
Going back to maybe some of the conflicts that may have occurred on campus during this time, there is evidence that there was a cross burning outside the old library during the time that integration was taking place. Were you aware of any of that?

Crawford:
I vaguely remember hearing about that, but, again, I don't think it was blown up in the press and wasn't just broadcast to the ends of the world. I don't think it was extremely significant. I may be wrong. I just don't recall too much about that. But it didn't influence my thinking very much.

Hasier:
From what I understand from the newspaper article I read, Matthews did not allow the press to take pictures of the actual cross. So the newspaper story ran without any photographs. Do you think that maybe that helped to downplay the situation?

Crawford:
Well, all of us know that pictures tell the story better than words.

Hasier:
Now we were speaking about the fact that you had Abner Haynes and Leon King in your class. Did you notice any drop in your class enrollment because of the fact that you were having black students?

Crawford:
Not at all. None at all. I don't remember that specific class, but I do remember it was quite large, well over a hundred. I think the largest class I ever taught here was about 325 people, and it was in the business building before they remodeled their area over there and down-sized it. Always in a group over hundred, somebody's going to get sick or some other circumstances that will enter in, and a few people might have dropped. But to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with Abner and Leon. In fact, I think that they added to the class. Particularly Abner, with his outgoing personality, would make fun comments that we all enjoyed. I think he just added a lot to the class.

Hasier:
So he [Abner] was seen as sort of a unique individual in your class?

Crawford:
Right, and he went on to be a very unique football player. Leon was probably not as good a football player. He was more reserved. Abner was the type of person that would make jokes about himself, and just about everybody loves a person that'll turn jokes around on themselves. So I think that everyone really loved Abner. Leon was very reserved, and you couldn't always tell what Leon was thinking, or at least I couldn't. But he was a very nice person.

Hasier:
So you think it's more of the personality and less of the fact they were athletes that they were accepted?

Crawford:
Oh, I think so. Of course, back then they were such good football players, and it was back in the good old days when we were doing a lot of winning. You know, people like athletes.  People enjoy somebody that comes and helps enhance the reputation of a college.

Hasier:
Matthews did not... even though he did accept Haynes and King on the football team and allowed them to attend school here, they were not allowed to live on campus. Were you aware of any of the feelings about that?

Crawford:
I've talked to Abner and Leon several times, and they never mentioned anything by their appearance, their personality, the way they conducted themselves. I don't think they were upset. I think they were just glad to be getting an education.

Hasier:
So you don't think that the fact that they couldn't live on campus deterred them in any way?

Crawford:
No, not at all. You have to remember the campus was much smaller then than what it is now. I don't know the exact enrollment, but it's sure not the twenty-some-odd-thousand that we have now, and it certainly didn't have all the buildings we have now. Like I mentioned, I think there were four, perhaps five, of us that made up the whole Biology Department-the faculty in it -- and it was so much smaller.

Hasier:
Do you think that smallness made it a more closed community and...

Crawford:
Oh, yes, yes. We could know our students back then because we could spend more time with them. We didn't have all these meetings to go to. We didn't have all the different things to do, and it was a wonderful time. I always had an open door. I'd walk in the first day and write my room number on the blackboard. We didn't have our individual phones then. I think there might have been two phones (chuckle) in the whole building, so I gave them another office phone number
that could get in touch with me. But, oh, yes, it was wonderful. It was small, we knew each other, we appreciated each other, and I think that really led to or helped lead to a peaceful integration. I really believe when people know each other and understand each other, they can respect each other better, and they can accept each other better. It's the fear of the unknown that sometimes really, really upsets people. Like, if you understand lightening, you don't have to be afraid of it; you just respect it.

Hasier:
That's a very interesting comment. I did mention that Ben Wooten was the chairman of the Board of Regents at the time that integration was taking place. Did you have any knowledge of Ben Wooten?

Crawford:
I knew the name. He was, as chairman of the Board, a very active man.  He was a very dedicated man. He came on campus, and he would walk through the buildings sometimes, and we had an opportunity to talk to him some. Again, the campus wasn't all that big, so it was easier to get to people like that. He spent a lot of his life up here on campus and a lot his time thinking about what was best for this college then. I really think he had a good attitude. He wanted to see us integrated. He wanted to see all of us cooperate, and he wanted human beings to become one.

Hasier:
Do you think that the fact that he probably had a very similar attitude to Matthews made the whole integration process a lot easier than it might have been?

Crawford:
Without a doubt. In fact, they made a very good team. They worked very closely together. Things seemed to click when they would get together. Of course, Ben Wooten was just one person. They had several board members then, and the board members were very much like Mr. Wooten, as far as attitude is concerned. It was just a good situation. I just think we were very fortunate.

Hasier:
It sounds very unique. Back to students in the classroom, for black students, did you find that their preparation level was any different than maybe someone who came from a white background?

Crawford:
That's one thing I did notice, and therefore I tried to give them special help. They just didn't have the background that some of the regular students had, and I think they knew it, and probably they were a little apprehensive about it. After all, people like Abner and Leon were plodding new territory, so to speak. I invited them, as I did all students, to come in to my office if I could help them at any time. I tried to leave time during class period for them to ask questions, if they needed to. Sometimes white students would come in; sometimes the black students would come in. Particularly, I think Abner and Leon were aware that they needed a little extra help. I don't remember their exact grades -- it's been a long time -- but I remember that they worked hard. Of course, the main thing in their life then was football. They loved to play football, and they were very good at it.

Hasier:
But that [Unequal academic preparation background] didn't deter them from doing well in class necessarily?

Crawford:
They did well. They did not excel as some of the students did, but they did well. My guess is that for them to do well, they had to put in more effort than the average student did. Because, let's face it, I don't think the quality of teaching in the black schools was comparable to what it was in some of the white schools. But I have to tell you that some of the small schools, some of the small white schools, didn't have all that quality teaching either. Fortunately, now I think we're turning out better teachers, and there are more opportunities. Even though we're in a slump economically, I think there's more money now, more technology now, and things are probably a little better in most of the classrooms.

Hasier:
Now you mentioned being available for that extra help. Was your grading scale any different for the black students than for the white students?

Crawford:
I have never bent any grading scale for any student whatsoever. I've always used, what used to be called, the university standards. Anything in the nineties is an A; anything in the eighties is a B; anything in the seventies is a C; anything in the sixties is a D; and anything below sixty is a failure. I have never, never, never done an individual-type-situation to change grades. I don't think the black students expected it. If I ever had a class -- and I don't even remember one of these-where the grades were extremely low, I always felt I could curve the grades up at the end of the semester. But everybody's grades got curved. That's the only fair way to do it. That's the only way to do it, in my opinion.

Hasier:
Right. Do you know if Matthews had said anything to the faculty regarding the grading of black students?

Crawford:
I believe, in a faculty meeting one time, he just kind of casually mentioned that "we will have some black students on the campus, and I know that you will welcome them as you do our other students. That you will be kind and considerate of them like you are the other students." You see, Dr. Matthews, first of all, was in teacher education. He emphasized teaching, and he was a teacher himself. He was very unique in that he knew how to get into the minds of teachers. Research was important, but it was not emphasized as much then as it is now. Of course, today we have to consider both teaching and research because that's the way the world is, and both of those are very, very important. There are some personalities, that I personally feel are more teaching-oriented; there are some personalities that are different and more research-oriented. It's somewhat a unique find when you can get a person that's excellent at research and excellent at teaching. But Dr. Matthews demanded and got quality teaching when he was president. He just wouldn't allow students to be mistreated, as far as I could tell. Again, I have to tell you, I don't think any of the faculty really wanted to mistreat the students.

Hasier:
So you think his teaching background made him a better administrator? Dr. Matthews, we're speaking of.

Crawford:
Did his teaching background make him a better administrator? It could in that he was highly organized. I think it takes more than a background to make a good administrator. I remember when we had a president that, I think, had nothing more than a bachelor's or master's degree, "Jitter" [Calvin C.] Nolan.  That man came to us out of business, and in my opinion he really, really did some good things for this university. He did not have a research background. He
did not have a Ph.D., and yet he was able to run the whole university. Some faculty that were here then will perhaps differ with me, but that's my opinion.

Hasier:
So you don't think it's necessarily the education of the person that becomes the president. Actually, it's their strengths in character and personality that make them a better administrator.

Crawford:
I think it takes both of those, and I'd like to throw in a whole lot of common sense.

Hasier:
(Chuckle) Well, going back to the fact that it was a very peaceful integration, that keeps coming out more and more. Some of the reasons that I've read, in my research, that may complement the peaceful integration was the fact that Denton was a small community, and they did have a very small population of blacks in the community. Can you comment on that situation?

Crawford:
At that time, the population of blacks was small, and they were all in what we call "East Denton." They had their own school, Fred Moore School, and they had some excellent people teaching in that school. Many of those teachers had an excellent background for the times. You have to remember that in the past many years, people have gone more for advanced degrees. People have spent more time in universities, and particularly with so many educated people now, I can probably speak more for the field I'm in, which is the sciences. We have turned out so many Ph.D.s in the last several years that they're lined up waiting for jobs. So we've got a lot of highly educated people, but that doesn't mean that they're necessarily a good teacher personality.

But the community of Denton was small, and I like to think that the school board funded the Fred Moore school as it should have then. My husband was on the school board in more recent years for about, I guess, nine years, and he was president of the board, and I'm familiar more of later years. But I do know that Fred Moore has done a lot of good things for a lot of good people here in Denton.

Hasier:
Another reason that could explain this peaceful integration, unlike other cities, is that there really wasn't any competition between blacks and whites for jobs that may have caused some racial tension.  Do you think that's true of Denton?

Crawford:
Oh, I think so. Denton has tried to stay small, and at times a lot people back in the time period we're talking about thought the city fathers did everything they could not to let industry come in, not to let certain things come in, because they wanted a good "wholesome environment"; and that kept the community small. Now we have more industry in here, but there just wasn't a lot of jobs available then, and there weren't a lot of blacks or whites after those jobs.   So I don't think the jobs were a real problem.

I have noticed one thing that I want to mention, that I'm glad is being corrected, and that is the blacks oftentimes had the more menial jobs. They were the custodians.  They engaged in maintenance and things like that. Some of those people were very sharp people, but they just hadn't had the opportunity to perhaps go to college or go to a trade school. I think that's one of the things that's passed on from family to family. Their parents hadn't been to college, and the parents before hadn't been, so they didn't go and their children didn't go. Then finally, they got the opportunity to go.

Blacks are very nice people. They realize that they want their children to have what's best, just like we [whites]. All parents want what's best for our children. They want what's best for their children, and they're very pleased that their children and grandchildren and so forth can be educated. I like to see everybody, regardless of the color of their skin, take advantage of the opportunities life affords them. If people don't take advantage of a college opportunity, if they really want to go to college now, it's probably their fault, in my opinion. Because I think North Texas and just about any college you can think of bends over backwards to try to help people.

I'm a little disturbed about some of the things I read now, that are going on in our campus in the year 1995. I know that there's been a tremendous push to try to get more minority teachers, for example, in the Biology Department. They're just not out there. I don't know where they are.  They're just not out there, and we feel duty-bound to bring in the best professors so that we can train the best people to go out with their college degree. So I'm a little concerned about that now, and I'd like to see more concentration on each person improving himself/herself, whatever their skin color is, and really make this a better world, make this a happier world, and I believe that can be accomplished.

Hasier:
Since we are discussing faculty at North Texas State College at the time, there was an incident with a Professor Jesse Ritter. He organized some students to do a stand-in at the Campus Theatre. It was a protest against the segregated facilities in Denton. Do you remember any feelings that were going on around at the time when this was happening?

Crawford:
I remember the incident. I remember reading a little bit about it, but since I'm not in the English Department, I do not know all the details. I do know that the administration here is fair. You will never be discharged as a faculty member because of one simple incident. Now one severe incident that breaks the rules might do it, such as types of harassment and things of that nature, things that are very serious. But I believe that there was more involved in the dismissal of the faculty member than just that one incident.

Hasier:
So you're referring to the fact that Jesse Ritter's contract wasn't renewed, and that you feel that it wasn't just because of the fact that he organized these students?

Crawford:
Like I said, I don't have all the facts, but I really feel that had to be true, that probably there was something else unknown to me at this point that was involved in that.

Hasier:
I've read a newspaper article that called North Texas State College the "Island of Integration," referring to the fact, yes, North Texas State was integrated, but the Denton Community was still segregated. Do you remember any evidence of that when you were living in Denton?

Crawford:
Oh, yes, I can give you an evidence in my own church at that time, that I'm not proud of. The minister delivered his message. He gave an invitation for people to become members of the church. A young lady, who in biological terms we would describe as mulatto -- she has some black background and some white background and had very light skin color -- went down and presented herself. There were some other people that presented themselves. He [the minister] presented all those people to the congregation. The congregation voted all of those people in, including this black student. Then later, some of the older members of the church found out that she was "black," and it really created an uproar there. To make a long story short, ultimately that minister was dismissed from that pulpit. He went the next Sunday morning to another pulpit, and a pulpit committee was there to hear him, and they picked him up, and he did nothing but go on to a bigger church, a better church, and more happiness probably for him. So the community did not progress at the level that people at North Texas did.  If you stop and think, they really weren't made aware of this. All they would do is read little blurbs in the newspaper. They hadn't been in touch with blacks and just hadn't communicated with them very well. But I think once they got together and I think pretty well they have by now-they started liking each other, they started appreciating each other, and that sort of thing. It's just like whites. Whites sometimes like some whites better than other whites. So I think whites liked some dark-skinned people better than others, but it's not the color of the skin, in my opinion; it's the personality, which is attracted more to some personalities.

Hasier:
So you think it was more of their unfamiliarity...

Crawford:
Yes, I really do. The people in Denton are basically nice people. Most of them are pretty well-educated. And I think they're very accepting, but they just didn't understand the situation.

Hasier:
Do you think the fact that maybe the faculty had more liberal views toward black people that made it a little bit easier here than it did in a community where they sort of came from a rural background?

Crawford:
Probably 80, but I have to tell you there were some faculty that weren't considered all that liberal. It's in the last many years that liberalism has really come to front, as you no doubt know. But I think that when the faculty got them [black students] in their classrooms, they saw them as human beings, and every faculty wants to help students. They want to see their students excel. Quite frankly, if my students don't excel, I feel somewhat of a failure if my students have really tried.  I have to take some of the blame if they really tried real hard. And I think that's just a general attitude of particularly faculty back then.

Hasier:
So you don't remember any particular faculty that were sort of racist or grew up with a different attitude?

Crawford:
I remember some that used to chop cotton with the blacks, and they didn't quite understand that the blacks that were coming to college were different from those people in some ways. But they accepted them once they got in their classroom.

Hasier:
So regardless of their maybe personal opinions, they [faculty] were professional when it came to teaching the students?

Crawford:
I think so. All that I became aware of were very professional.

Hasier:
In sort of summing up, I have a question here, and I would like to state it to you. Why do you personally think blacks found North Texas State College so attractive?

Crawford:
Why do any students find a certain college so attractive? Generally, they live in the area, or they can afford it, or they have a friend that goes there, or they like the majors that the university offers. I don't know the individual reasons why the first blacks found North Texas attractive. But I think that after they got here, they felt that they were accepted, and that made it easier to study, progress, and go on and hopefully graduate from the university. I also think that North Texas, really, in a way did lots of things indirectly that made them feel welcome. I mean, I never saw a banner that said "Welcome Blacks" at or on campus. That wasn't certainly the way to do it, and North Texas didn't do it. But I think by individual faculty being concerned about the students in the classroom, including the blacks, this happened. Right now and for several years, I've been faculty chair of the Mentor Committee.  One of the things we're trying to do is just to make North Texas an even warmer, more loving, more attractive atmosphere to all people of all skin colors. You have to keep in mind that teachers are human, too, and the classes are as different as personalities of the teacher. You can have several classes of the same type and different people teaching them, and ultimately one of those classes, one of those sections, will be more attractive than others because of the personality of the teacher and the way teachers do things. But I really think that North Texas opened its arms to these people when the time was said that we're going to be integrated. Unfortunately, somebody didn't push this way back earlier than in the 1950s.

Hasier:
So why do you think there was no problems with desegregation at North Texas State College as opposed to things that were going on in Alabama and other areas?

Crawford:
Probably many reasons. The integration was done in such a way that nobody was forced. You know, when we're forced to do something, we sometime rebel. Nobody was "forced." We understood that this was coming on. We looked forward to it. We thought of the blacks students as being humans just like the rest of us are, and it just went smoothly.

Hasier:
Do you think the fact that North Texas was under a court order to integrate made it somewhat easier for some people to accept it?

Crawford:
I think court orders are always a factor. Court orders tell you it's time to do this. They tell you, "Let's move on. Let's do these things." And when you get a court order, that's a legal mandate, and you know its time to do something. It's just like if you have a checking account and you withdraw. You know that if you write too many checks, it's time to put money back in, right?

Hasier:
So you're saying that probably the court order helped, but maybe the attitude of the people here was ready for this?

Crawford:
I think the people were ready for it. And I think the world was ready, the United States, Texas, Denton, and North Texas State was ready to have these people move on and realize their potential.

Hasier:
Okay, in closing did you have anything else you'd like to mention any aspect we haven't covered?

Crawford:
I think you've done an excellent job of covering this. I'm really happy I was here when this was going on. The fact that I don't remember a lot of things tells me that they weren't real outstanding. No glaring problems were here. Nobody really got extremely upset, and nothing that was real adverse happened.

But I'm proud of North Texas. I think especially then, and moving on to today, as a mentor and as faculty chair of the Mentor Committee, I see this university bending over backwards to help students. I'm also aware that there are some things that go on in the classroom -- and the professor's at fault here -- that can create some adverse comments and adverse feelings. It really bothers me when I hear of a professor going into a classroom and saying that  "'X' number of you are going to flunk, so you might as well drop now." That really bothers me. But the nice thing is I haven't heard that lately. It may be still going on in some classrooms, but I haven't heard it lately. I think our job is to take our students and help them in any way they need help and to just help them realize their potential. I think that's what life's all about.

So I'm really happy to be at North Texas. I've enjoyed many years of tenure here. I'm hoping that we will continue to grow in understanding and love and
concern for each other. That's the way life should be.

Hasier:
Well, I appreciate all the time you have taken and all the wonderful memories that you had to share with us today.

Crawford:
Well, thank you. It's been fun.

[Tape turned off]

Crawford:
There will be some sweet black students. There are so fun-loving and exciting. They'll come in, and we can just sit down, and I've never laughed so hard in my life. They'll tell funny things, and they'll laugh, and I'll laugh, and its just really a relaxing time. They're just really fun people. They have a lot of things to overcome. My 2080 class now has so many single mothers in it. Over 90 percent of the class is females, and so many of them are single mothers that have gone through abusive relationships. They're either getting a divorce, or they're having a divorce, and the average one will have up to two, maybe three, little children.  They have to work so hard, maybe at a job. They have to be parents. They have to study. I honestly don't know how they do everything, but still they're happy. They come in, and the weight of the world will be on their shoulders, but they'll smile, and I appreciate that. I think that shows a lot of character.

Hasier:
Do you think that they work just as hard as the first black students that came here? You were mentioning that they had to work a little bit harder then?

Crawford:
Probably their [black students] background is now a little better, and they don't have to work as hard now. But I don't think right now black students, as far as background are concerned, are any different from our white students. I think most of the backgrounds are pretty equal. At least I've noticed that in my classes. Listen, we have a lot of white students, if you want to get technical, that just don't jive sometimes (chuckle) in the classroom.

Hasier:
All right.

Crawford:
Dad's paying for it, and they're there.

Hasier:
So you had mentioned that you sort of knew everything was going on, and you were a little bit unaware of it, but you knew it [desegregation] had to happen?

Crawford:
I knew it was supposed to happen, and I was hired by the University of North Texas to teach, and those became my students, and they were just as valuable as any student in the classroom.

Hasier:
Well, thank you for those additional (chuckle) comments.

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