University of North Texas Oral History Collection

Interview with Joe Lindsay Keffer
Interviewer: Christine Ketay
Place of Interview: Denton, Texas.
Date of Interview: October 12, 1996

Ms. Ketay:
This is Christine Ketay interviewing Joe Lindsay Keffer for the University of North Texas Oral History Program. This interview is taking place on October 12, 1996, in Denton, Texas. I am interviewing Mr. Keffer in order to obtain his recollections concerning the desegregation of North Texas State College.

Mr. Keffer, why don't we start out with...

Mr. Keffer:
Why don't we start out with you calling me Lindsay.

Ms. Ketay:
I can do that. Lindsay, why don't you tell me a bit about your background and your personal history.

Mr. Keffer:
Oh, all right. I was the third male child born to Lott Thomas and Willie Hale Keffer, and I was born in 1934. We were originally a family of four, but the first-born son, Lott Thomas, Junior, died of scarlet fever at the age of six. So, that made my family then composed of three, an older brother and an older sister. As I say, I was born in 1934, and there's six years difference between myself and my sister. That was in Amarillo, Texas. At the tender age of one, I moved to Seymour, which is out in West Texas. I went through elementary and secondary schools there. Whenever I was a freshman in high school, in Seymour High School... it's now the Seymour Rural High School District, but it was Seymour Independent [School District] whenever I went there (chuckle). At any rate, whenever I was a freshman at Seymour High, my mother and father took three children -- cousins -- from his brother. His brother and his wife were killed in an automobile accident, and they had a very large family of nine. All the brothers took three of the children, so that meant three -- my cousin John and then two females. Margaret ("Peggy") at the time was a graduate student at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. At any rate, that left us a family of six. John was in school at the University of Texas, and Pat was a senior in high school with my sister. So, we had a very large family.

I finished high school in 1951 and went to Texas Tech for the first summer session. I could not take the sand nor the [smell of the] cow [feed] lots whenever the wind shifted to the north. The wind does blow out there incessantly from one direction or the other, but it never stops blowing.

The late Sam McCalister was my mentor here at North Texas State College. It had been North Texas State College since 1948 or 1949, I guess it was. Before, it was North Texas State Teachers College. It then changed and has had seven names altogether, but it really pictures our history, too, as an institution and its development.

Ketay:
It makes it difficult to keep track of, as far as the times.

Keffer:
Oh, I know.

Ketay:
People who graduated from that time are very sensitive to which [institutional] name they graduated under. You mentioned that you went to high school in Seymour. How did you end up at Texas Tech?

Keffer:
Being in West Texas, and then my cousin and my sister all went to Texas Tech.

Ketay:
So, it was a family-type of deal?

Keffer:
Yes, it was a family deal and the proximity of Texas Tech, even though Seymour is exactly one-half the distance between Denton and Lubbock [Texas]. If you bat your eye or sneeze, you'll miss the town of Seymour (chuckle), but that's why I went to Texas Tech. As I say, I had read some things of Sam McCalister. He was an expert on constitutional law and had advised a couple of presidents, Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman, on constitutional law. At that time, though, Chris, I was interested in the political side, i.e., political science or the machinations of government only as a side interest.

I thought that I was going to be an interior decorator. In fact, in the class will that they make for every graduating class, I always laugh whenever we have a class reunion. I never used to go to those high school class reunions, until I was urged to do so by a good friend of mine, and did. They have them every five years. I haven't missed one since -- that means I've only gone to two (chuckle) -- because it was so much fun. But they have a class will, and they read it at every reunion. Several members of my graduating class were in the nursing profession. So, in this will it says that Joe Keffer -- and I'll explain later why I go by Lindsay -- was being nursed back to health with a broken leg by June Crawford and some others when he fell from a ladder in doing redecorating in the Library of Congress (chuckle).

Ketay:
That's hilarious!

Keffer:
(Laughter) I always did laugh over that. They'd always look over at me.

Ketay:
The Library of Congress!

Keffer:
Well, they knew my plans. One of them was a librarian, a remarkably well-read and bright young lady. She put that in there because of my interest in interior decorating and politics. Isn't that a "hoot" (laughter) -- being nursed back to health with a broken leg after falling off a ladder in the Library of Congress while doing redecorating.

But at any rate, I came here. Cora Stafford was, of course, a leader in the development of what is now the School of Visual Arts. It was the Department of Art at that time, in the College of Arts and Sciences. Well, it was just like Music, you know. It used to be a part of the College of Arts and Sciences, until it became the School of Music, and now it's the College of Music. But at any rate, I wanted to be an interior decorator, so I became an art major. It took me one year and the second summer session of 1951 to determine that I had really no talent in that area.

Ketay:
Oh, I've seen your house. I don't think that's true. So, you came to North Texas, then, in the summer of 1951.

Keffer:
Yes. Right after graduation from high school. I took one summer session at Texas Tech, as I said, and I couldn't handle the cows (chuckle).

Ketay:
Well, before we go too far into the North Texas side, can you give me an idea of what folks and your family did?

Keffer:
My father, when we were in Amarillo, where I was born, was with the Texas State Highway Patrol. He was a police officer, and that, by the way, by being an employee of the state, my parents told me later, really saved them in the Depression. I was a Depression baby, having been born in 1934 (chuckle). In fact, my mother, at the time when she discovered that she was pregnant with me, she thought, "That's all we need!" (laughter)

Ketay:
Boy, was she depressed (chuckle)!

Keffer:
Another mouth to feed (laughter). But him being an employee of the state is what got them through, because they were paid in [state government-issued] chits and certificates because there was no money. Then he was promoted to the Comptroller's Office of the Division of Motor Fuels for the State of Texas, and he moved to Dallas [Texas] at that time. That was in 1953. When they moved from Amarillo, though, to Seymour, he was still a patrolman. That was his assignment. He got in on some of the chases of Bonnie and Clyde [reference to the notorious Depression-era bank robbers, Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow], some of those. In fact, he lost a partner. Back then they all rode motorcycles with sidecars, or at least he did. He lost a partner. He was on the motorcycle, and the partner was in the car in a shoot-out with Bonnie Parker, but not with Clyde Barrow. Bonnie Parker and some of her gang were making a dash for the West Texas wilds.

Ketay:
Oh, my goodness!

Keffer:
Well, they would do that and then divert back up to Oklahoma because all of the Oklahoma routes from Texas were pretty well covered.

Ketay:
I can imagine.

Keffer:
So, they were very inventive. They'd rob a bank or something and then go one direction like they were going to Louisiana, and then they'd scoot down (chuckle) by circuitous routes in order to get back to Oklahoma.

Ketay:
It sounds like they knew their way around.

Keffer:
They really did. Of course, there's a lot of stories connected with that. My father resigned to run for sheriff of Baylor County and won and was reelected sheriff, and in the middle of his second term of sheriff, he was offered the position of Director of the Texas Motor Fuels Division of the Comptroller's Department, which was headquartered in Dallas. And he took it. That was in 1953, which meant that he was sheriff while I was in high school. A lot of my running friends... Betty Richmond was the daughter of the county judge; Grace Nickelson was the daughter of the county treasurer (chuckle).

Ketay:
Goodness!

Keffer:
So, we had a lot of fun.

Ketay:
You guys had to behave!

Keffer:
Well, yes, we were supposed to. I'll tell you a little tale on that, if you'd like to hear it, which I shall never forget. All the sheriff's personal autos were equipped with sirens. There was just a little switch that you'd switch, and then you could honk the horn, and it would turn the siren on. Well, football was king in West Texas, and there was always a line of cars going up on the hill in Seymour, where the stadium is located. So, we had a car full of "clever-headed" [fun-seeking] adolescents in high school. You know, we thought we were just "the thing" [cool]. So, I was in our car, and this was whenever I was a senior, by the way. I should have known better, but, of course, I didn't. We saw all that line of cars. I thought, "Oh, I can just push the siren, and we can just pass all the cars and go up to the head of the line." I did it.

Ketay:
Oh, no!

Keffer:
And I went up there and put on the blinkers to turn in to the gate, and guess who was standing there.

Ketay:
Dad!

Keffer:
Dad (laughter). Guess who not only had to go back, but who also had to be the last one. I thought that was terrible because I was playing in the band at the time, and a number of people in the car were also in the band. It didn't make any difference to him (chuckle)!

Ketay:
I bet not! Sounds like you got caught, Lindsay (laugher).

Keffer:
I did. I got caught. My brother... I told you my sister went to Texas Tech. My brother received a joint appointment, a senatorial and congressional appointment, to West Point [the United States Military Academy, West Point, New York] and graduated in 1948. John, my cousin, became an international lawyer in Caracas [Venezuela] and is now retired in London [England]. Pat is the wife of a rancher. She also taught English out in San Angelo [Texas]. She went to Texas Tech. My sister graduated from Tech, and her husband was also a Texas Tech graduate. They live over here in Crowley [Texas]. She, by the way, was the art major. She was a long-time lecturer for Weight Watchers and is now retired, and so is he.

My father died in 1953 -- he was fifty-four years old -- of a cardiac occlusion. My mother remained in Dallas for another two years and then became... back then they were called "house mothers." She became a house mother at Dan Waggoner Hall at Texas Wesleyan College and was there for three years and then became a house mother at her church school, Texas Christian University. She became a house mother for Colby Hall until her retirement. Then she moved back to Seymour.

Ketay:
So, your family had quite an interaction and involvement with higher education.

Keffer:
Absolutely. My mother was a substitute teacher. Both of them [parents] were graduates of West Texas State College. We just grew up knowing that was one expectation, regardless of how long it took us. That meant that my father had five [children] in college...

Ketay:
Oh, goodness!

Keffer:
... at one time. Of course, for my brother, there was no expenses, because that was all paid for at West Point. But then that left my sister Ellen. Margaret was far enough along that that didn't really impact a great deal.

Ketay:
That's a big responsibility.

Keffer:
Yes, it really was. Higher education was just an expectation. My grandmother, my maternal grandmother, was a college professor at Mary Hardin-Baylor. Her husband -- my grandfather -- was a circuit-riding pioneer dentist in West Texas. He had marvelous equipment, including a folding chair that fit on the side of the horse. Everything was so neat. Higher education has been a big part of my life. Let's see. My brother remained in the Air Force -- he switched from the Army to the Air Force -- until his retirement. He took early retirement and became a vice-president for what is now ARCO.

Ketay:
ARCO, which is what?

Keffer:
Atlantic Richfield Oil Company.

Ketay:
So, he went into the oil business.

Keffer:
Yes. He was in California. His wife was also a teacher.

Ketay:
Education was an important part of your family.

Keffer:
We just grew up with that expectation. There wasn't any choice. In other words, I knew that when I graduated from high school, I was going to college.

Ketay:
So, it wasn't "were you going to college," but "where are you going to college?"

Keffer:
That's right, yes.

Ketay:
My family was the same way. Well, growing up in West Texas, tell me a bit about your recollections and interactions with black people as you were growing up.

Keffer:
Well, of course, being in West Texas, there weren't many. But my first contact with blacks... they had a separate school in Seymour at the time for blacks. There were so few blacks at the time that it became a financial burden on the school district to provide two separate schools. Of course, I'm jumping a little bit ahead. But when I was there, there were just a few black students. Two of the male students... my first contact was when we wanted them in our [Boy] Scout troop, because the Scout troop wasn't very large and all. We wanted them. Well, there was not much discussion over whether or not they should... there was agreement, you know: "Why not?" But there was some reluctance on the part of others, like, at the church that sponsored the troop: "Well, we just don't know." There wasn't a lot of "to do" [fuss] over it... one of the black man's name was... we nicknamed him "Snow" because his last name was White, you know, "Snow White." He got the biggest kick out of that. But my first impression was that we were not white to them. We were beige.

Ketay:
Beige?

Keffer:
Yes, beige. You know how I related to you the other day that our unofficial adopted daughter's son went to a predominantly black church during the campaign. She's an administrative assistant for [U. S. Representative] Martin Frost. Anyway, her son, Scotty, said, after it [the 1996 election campaign] was over, "You know, Mom, we were the only peach people there. I didn't see any white people."

Ketay:
Oh, how funny!

Keffer:
"We're the 'peach people.'" Isn't that wonderful? But, no, we were beige (chuckle).

Ketay:
You were beige.

Keffer:
Yes. We were not white and "Snow" White got the biggest kick out of us (chuckle), saying, "Why are y'all calling yourself white? You're not white! You're beige!" He said, "Put that arm up there next to mine. That's beige. That's not white."

Ketay:
And about what year was this?

Keffer:
That was in 1949.

Ketay:
That was pretty forward for then.

Keffer:
Yes, but, like I said, in Seymour it became an economic thing. Most of the time, if you hit somebody in their pocketbooks, they'd change their attitudes rather rapidly.

Ketay:
It tends to open minds.

Keffer:
So, in 1954, the year of Brown vs. Board of Education, it was almost with a sigh of relief... and Seymour was not the only one. There were a number of West Texas towns that had already gone on ahead and integrated before Brown because of an economic thing. Well, in Seymour it was like a sigh of relief. They instantly integrated. Of course, as I said, there wasn't but a handful of students that were black.

Ketay:
How many is a handful?

Keffer:
Oh, I think that there was total of probably thirteen.

Ketay:
The population of Seymour at that time was about what?

Keffer:
At that time, the population was about 4,000.

Ketay:
That's a nice-sized community for West Texas.

Keffer:
Yes. Like all the others, it has shrunk now and would probably be barely able to produce 3,000 people.

Ketay:
Still, it's a nice little town.

Keffer:
Yes, it is.

Ketay:
You came to North Texas in 1951?

Keffer:
Yes, in the summer 1951, second summer session.

Ketay:
Second summer session.

Keffer:
The late Alex Dickie was the registrar -- long-time registrar. He, via telephone and so forth, made the transition very easy. Of course, then there wasn't near as much folderol [foolish nonsense and bureaucratic red tape] that one had to go through coming from one public institution to another. Tuition at that time was $25...

Ketay:
I wish!

Keffer:
... a semester. It was! That's what I paid in 1951.

Ketay:
That would be so nice.

Keffer:
Both at Texas Tech and at North Texas.

Ketay:
Times have certainly changed!

Keffer:
Well, it was wonderful to pay $12.50 for the summer sessions.

Ketay:
Oh, my! That is an affordable higher education. Tell me about the college at that time.

Keffer:
Very predominantly Caucasian. Well, whenever I got here, it was all-white. There were no blacks. Then I went into the service, because of the Korean "Police Action," in 1953.

Ketay:
So, you were here for two years, and then you went...

Keffer:
Yes, then I went. I volunteered for the Air Force rather than be drafted. There were several of us, my roommates and fraternity brothers and so forth, who all were "chicken" [afraid of being drafted], so we volunteered (chuckle) rather than being drafted because we didn't want to be in the Army. You know, I look back now, and it was so dumb (chuckle). We should have gone in the Army and be done with it.

At any rate, I was in the Air force for three-and-a-half years on a four-year commitment. Here again, I didn't go anywhere. I stayed right in San Antonio [Texas] after my basic training. There, of course, were many blacks in the service because President [Harry S] Truman had integrated the services in 1948. Really, it was successful. At one time, I had a squadron commander and a base general that were both black. I went to instructor school and then spent all of my time teaching in the officer's training school in Lackland [Air Force Base] and then got an early "out" [separation from service] because I was going back to education, going back to get a degree.

Ketay:
You mentioned that two of your C.O.s [commanding officers] were black.

Keffer:
Yes, the squadron commander. Oh, and at one time I had a black female adjutant who was a "hoot."

Ketay:
Yes?

Keffer:
Yes. I often wonder what happened to her, because she was just a "hoot." She was one that said that I had... one time they came out with a new regulation concerning health care, so I was to give it [present a lecture on it] to the squadron in the squadron hall where the whole squadron met. I had looked at it, and I thought, "God, this is just so boring!" So, I just made a comedy out of it, you know, and said, "Well, at the end of the 365th day, they kick you out on the porch" (chuckle) and stuff like that. Well, after it was over, she came up and said that I had made the wrong choice for a career (chuckle), that I had a calling in another direction, and she said, "Obviously, Lindsay, it is not the military."

I told you earlier I was going to tell you why I go by my middle name. I do wish that my first name was Joseph, but it isn't. It's J-O-E, and I was never particularly fond of it. But in West Texas, you were called both names -- "Joe Lindsay" and "Betty Charlene," you know, this sort of thing. Whenever I got to teaching -- this was a general military training group -- before I went to officer candidate school, I don't guess it will ever happen again, but there were seven "Joes." Seven "Joes" in that unit.

Ketay:
My goodness!

Keffer:
Seven suckers named Joe. We all drew straws then as to who was going to start using their middle name. Obviously, I did not draw that straw, but that was okay with me because I've always liked the name Lindsay. It was a family name. I've always liked it. Then for everyone that knew me from that time on, including my wife, I was Lindsay. All the people [who knew me] before, though, whenever they call now or come to visit, it's, "Why, 'Joe' Lindsay!"

Ketay:
That sounds really nice. Oh, how fun.

Keffer:
Shortly after we were married, people who would be friends from the military would call, and Marsha [Keffer's wife] would answer the phone, and they'd say, "Well, is Joe there?" She'd say, "Joe who?" (laughter).

Ketay:
(Laughter)

Keffer:
(Laughter) But at any rate, then I came back to North Texas in 1957, and a lot had taken place here while I had been away in the Air Force. But I never lost contact with North Texas and my friends here.

Ketay:
You mentioned that you were here from 1951 to 1953 and that several of your fraternity brothers had joined the military with you.

Keffer:
Yes. They went all over the world.

Ketay:
Tell me about your involvement those first two years at North Texas, while you were here.

Keffer:
Okay. I majored in "campus." I pledged a fraternity, but that wasn't really a big thing. But I just majored in campus activities and dates and trips to Dallas and that sort of thing. In the fraternity was one Hawaiian, and that was somewhat of a novelty at that time. I worked in the Bruce Hall cafeteria and, of course, worked alongside a number of blacks. See, I'm a product of my time. I refer to them as blacks rather than Afro-Americans or African Americans. Most of them that I know now, that are my friends, have no reference point to Africa at all, and they don't refer to themselves as African Americans because they're Americans. They were born here. At any rate, I worked alongside blacks in Bruce Hall and became real fond of a couple of them, but at that time they were only limited to [working as] cooks, even then.

Ketay:
And these were people who were working at the college.

Keffer:
Yes, working.

Ketay:
They weren't students.

Keffer:
Oh, no, no, no, no, no! No!

Ketay:
They were employees of the university.

Keffer:
They were employees of the university. At that time, almost all of the food service personnel in Dining Services for the residence halls were all black. There were very few Caucasians that were cooks and so forth. Now supervisors and so forth were Caucasian. I always looked forward to the holidays like Christmas, because all of the workers at Bruce, all of the workers at Chilton, all of the workers everywhere... the "Quads"... I'm just naming those places I lived. I lived first at Chilton, and then they moved us out and then in the "Quads. "

Ketay:
And the "Quads" were where?

Keffer:
Oh, where the music practice... Music North and South are now. There's one that's vacant and being used as storage. Another one's an office. It has offices, but I don't know who's in there. I just know of the building.

Ketay:
So, that area next to where the PEB [Physical Education Building] is now and across from the Music Building.

Keffer:
Yes, that was the "Quads." Those were men's residence halls.

Ketay:
Okay. I didn't know that's what they were.

Keffer:
Oh, yes. They moved us out of Chilton when they turned it into sorority rooming. In fact, I used to live in what was then the Chi Omega's living room.

Ketay:
There's a claim to fame!

Keffer:
Yes. Oh, where were we? Supervisors were Caucasian, but the workers, almost all, were black.

Ketay:
And the members of the administration. Were there any...

Keffer:
The first black administrator... and I can't remember when he came. He must have come in the 1970s -- was Harve King. Shortly after that, a little time after that, there was a black woman, Alma... I forget her name. Alma... oh, mercy! Well, Alma was a terrific lady -- terrific lady. We were talking one time about the structure of the Division of Student Affairs. And you'd have to know Harve King to appreciate this. He was very vocal. He could rattle on for hours. He and Jack Wheeler would get together, and they would talk until eternity, until the next millennium. At any rate, he was talking about: "Well, let's have a division of foreign students." He said, "Alma, you head it up." (chuckle) And he was was going on. She said, "Harve, we're black! We're not foreign!"

Ketay:
(Laughter) That's good.

Keffer:
(Laughter) I remember that she was a delightful person, just a delightful person.

Ketay:
And that was into the 1970s.

Keffer:
So, a lot went on, as I say, while I was in the service. But whenever I got back here in 1957, there were still very few black as students.

Ketay:
You mentioned that you kept in contact with a lot of your college friends while you were in the military.

Keffer:
Oh, yes.

Ketay:
What were they telling you about this time period on campus?

Keffer:
Most of them were saying that they were... they were typical North Texans. They were pleased that North Texas was making the necessary changes to encourage blacks to attend. Most of my friends... their only comment was that the university wasn't moving fast enough. However, I see the wisdom in what then President J. C. Matthews did. He was equally committed to racially integrating the university, but he was not a crusader. And the reason I say the wisdom of that was because Mrs. [Irma] Sephas was the first student to enroll, and then the athletic team integrated with Abner Haynes. Abner Haynes became very popular with the athletes.

Ketay:
He was quite a guy.

Keffer:
Yes. Oh, he was very good! I haven't seen a better broken field runner than Abner Haynes to this day.

Ketay:
Is that right?

Keffer:
Oh, just magnificent! He could excite a whole stadium. He could even excite the opposition!

Ketay:
(Laughter) Just stand back and watch him go!

Keffer:
Yes. He was just simply wonderful.

Ketay:
Actually, Mrs. Sephas was the second student.

Keffer:
Was she?

Ketay:
Tennyson Miller had come in the summer before her.

Keffer:
Oh, I see. See, I missed that. I thought Mrs. Sephas was the first.

Ketay:
No, she was the second, but the first two were both graduate students, and they attended over the summer. When you were getting cards and letters from home, what kind of details were you hearing from friends and family?

Keffer:
Not a whole lot. Of course, Abner made quite a lot of headlines because we were the only major public institution whose athletic program was integrated at the time. And that was in 1957. [Editor's note: Texas Western College, El Paso, Texas, integrated its football team in 1955.]

Ketay:
Yes, it was.

Keffer:
We went down on a road trip to play the University of Houston in 1957, and I went. I'll never forget. We beat the University of Houston -- soundly!

Ketay:
Yea, team!

Keffer:
When the University of Houston players went off the field, they were chanting, "Two, four, six, eight, we don't have to integrate!"

Ketay:
Oh, my!

Keffer:
Of course, we weren't in the Southwest Conference, but all the Southwest Conference was lily-white. North Texas was the first one. Here, I had a young woman in political philosophy class in the summer of 1957. I went straight through. [Sigh] You know, names just come and go, but I can see her. "Wib" [H. W.] Kamp, who was my major professor, as a matter of fact, and he taught political philosophy. We were talking about why communism had no apparent appeal among blacks in this country.

Ketay:
That's interesting.

Keffer:
I'd never thought about it. But communism made no headway among blacks in this country, in the U.S. So, he said, "Why do you think that's so?" She gave a beautiful, beautiful response, and she just endeared herself to the whole class. They would protect her (chuckle) because of her... and it was early on, in one of the first few classes. She said, well, she didn't know, but she could do it from a personal standpoint as to why communism would have no appeal to her or to her family. And that was that what little they had was theirs. They were unwilling to share that with the state.

Ketay:
And this young lady was black?

Keffer:
Yes. She said, "That's why it would have no appeal to me." She said, "I don't know why... " and, of course, "Wib" Kamp said, "Well, that's one of the major things about the lack of appeal among blacks in the U.S. to communism." Because many felt that, even though they had few material possessions, what they had were theirs, and they were unwilling to share that with the state.

Ketay:
They had worked hard for them.

Keffer:
Yes, of course.

Ketay:
We're jumping over some things.

Keffer:
Okay. You're going to have to keep me on track. That's the way I am. You know me too well. I have a tendency to jump ahead, and then jump back, and then jump to the middle.

Ketay:
That's okay. We'll keep you on base. Tell me a bit about the students at that time.

Keffer:
Most of them, the majority, certainly, of my social friends and circle, which was considerable -- it wasn't greatly huge, but it was considerable -- were what we would call today decidedly liberal. They were the ones that would say, "Well, I don't see any problem." Whenever the first black undergraduate students appeared, all the media would appear -- the television stations, the radio stations, and so forth. They were going to follow this student, whomever it was, on a typical day on a predominantly white campus, their being one of the first undergraduates. Gladys Bates was the assistant registrar, and Carl Matthews was president; and they just couldn't seem to find that person's schedule. They just didn't know where it was. That was by design, Chris.

Ketay:
I'm sure.

Keffer:
And they handled it beautifully, because they [the media] all went home (chuckle). I mean, the media.

Ketay:
The media went home.

Keffer:
Yes, they just went home!

Ketay:
That's amazing. Tell me a little bit about...

Keffer:
And the students, like I say, at least those that I associated with, were liberal. But there was one in my class who was an acquaintance -- we didn't socialize -- Ed Micue, who was what would now be considered an arch-conservative. Of course, that was very unpopular at that time. But he did have a voice. I've often, too, wondered what happened to him. He was Caucasian, and he was vehemently against it, because he considered blacks to be truly intellectually inferior.

Ketay:
Oh, really?

Keffer:
Oh, he did (chuckle).

Ketay:
Tell me a bit about how the faculty and students interrelated.

Keffer:
Very well. Very well. Certainly, the initial black students that began to populate the classes originally were a novelty, but they soon lost the novelty status. Professors really didn't... I don't know how to say this. They really didn't hand-feed [make it extremely easy for] those blacks, even though many of them were coming out of high schools or preparation that left them at a certain disadvantage. But then most of the professors, when that was the case, recognized it, and they then did counsel with respect to additional readings or what they might do.

Ketay:
So, the faculty served as kind of mentors.

Keffer:
They certainly did. Much more, I'm sorry to say, than they do now.

Ketay:
Really?

Keffer:
With all students. Of course, the school back then wasn't as large -- 7,000 students on campus, or 8,000. Oh, I'll never forget my professors not only because they became mentors, but they became friends, without crossing the line. Certainly now, after I graduated, they did indeed become friends. I cared about them. There's not many of them left now (chuckle), but I cared about them and still do.

Ketay:
So, the faculty seemed to work more closely with those students.

Keffer:
Yes, most assuredly.

Ketay:
What observations did you have of faculty... and you mentioned that you had a young woman in one of your classes who was black. Did you ever observe a situation where the faculty or administrator had a problem with the black students on campus?

Keffer:
I never did. I never did at all. Now we heard... and, of course, there's always rumors.

Ketay:
Yes.

Keffer:
We heard [about incidents], but I never experienced that at all.

Ketay:
What were some of the rumors that you were hearing?

Keffer:
Some of the rumors were that... well, there was a rumor that I shall never forget. It could never be proven, but there [allegedly] was a professor in the Art Department who all but told a black student class, in front of everyone, that they might have rhythm, but they had no artistic ability.

Ketay:
Oh, my!

Keffer:
Which is terribly racist. But that was only a rumor, Chris. We were never able to know. It could have been made up by somebody, or it could have happened. I choose to think that it was a rumor and did not happen, and, consequently, we wouldn't repeat it. But, no, professors oftentimes made it very easy, especially in political science, where you're talking about political philosophies and the role of the black in the electorate and so forth. All of the professors that I had bent over backwards to make sure that it wasn't... if you were talking about sensitive things, they were there to move it along so that no one would be uncomfortable. If it got to be rather uncomfortable for someone, they'd cut it off and say, "We'll continue this at another time."

Ketay:
They really cut off the conversation?

Keffer:
Yes, if it looked like it was going to be too uncomfortable for the blacks in the class, especially when you're talking about Jim Crow laws and the reasoning behind those, see. Most of those students didn't have the foggiest idea of how those came about. They just grew up in an environment where it existed.

Ketay:
It just was [there].

Keffer:
Yes, it just was [that way]. They sat in the balcony at the theater down here, at the Dreamland Theatre, the same way. And the same way at the Campus [Theatre] when it first opened. They just sat in the balcony.

Ketay:
And that's the way it was.

Keffer:
Yes, that's the way it was. They had no idea what that was based on, like, in Texas history. That was very good, but that's fulfilling the role of education. But the professors -- all that I had -- were very careful, very nurturing, and were really role models with respect to being mentors for the students.

Ketay:
Tell me a little bit about the conversations your fellow students were having at that time.

Keffer:
You see, I had neglected to tell you that when I grew up, with a large family (chuckle), we had a domestic [maid], Dicee Axton Williams. She's long-deceased. We grew up looking upon her as a second mother because my mother was gone a lot, as was my father. But Dicee... I grew up in that environment, but I never could understand. I can still recall that whenever I was a toddler -- I couldn't understand -- I loved to be rocked to sleep by Dicee, because she was very large; and I could snuggle up in her bosom, which was enormous, and it was warm, and it was just wonderful to go to sleep. But I could never understand why she would never also sleep in the same bed. She'd put me to bed and would sleep on a pallet by the bed, but she would never sleep in the bed. I could never understand that until I got up into high school, and then I thought that was just nonsense. By that time, she had separate living quarters, but at the time, when I was a pup, she did not. She lived on the premises in a little apartment that they made in the back of the garage. Then, later, as I grew up, she got a home of her own. She no longer lived with us, but she still came. I was the same way in thinking about why she couldn't eat with us. Of course, in later years, she did -- at my father's insistence. Yet, she was a product of her environment. She was never comfortable, Chris, eating with us. She'd cook our food and loved cooking and loved all of us. She shared her love, which was just unbounded, but was never comfortable sitting down to eat dinner or to eat breakfast or to eat lunch with us.

Ketay:
Despite having been invited to do so?

Keffer:
Oh, yes.

Ketay:
That's interesting.

Keffer:
Of course, this was in the early 1950s. She'd say, "Oh, no. I've already eaten." My father and my mother were the same way and would say, "Dicee, we know you haven't eaten yet. Come, sit down, and eat with us." She would do it because they had asked her to, but she was never comfortable. She was a product of her time, as well as we were.

So, most of the black students didn't have the foggiest idea about what some of... so, it was incumbent upon the professor to lead the discussion in a manner that would prove not uncomfortable for the blacks in the class.

Ketay:
You mentioned a rumor that had gotten back. What are your recollections of any incidents on campus?

Keffer:
You know, Chris, I just didn't have any. All of mine [experiences] were positive. Attitudes, though, especially in some of my fraternity brothers... we would have discussions until the wee hours of the morning. You know how college students are. They know everything, and I was one of those.

Ketay:
The world's problems were solved at 2:00 in the morning?

Keffer:
In the morning, absolutely, over a bottle of wine or what-have-you.

Ketay:
What were those attitudes?

Keffer:
Some were the typical prejudiced attitudes but not necessarily in all cases. I can remember one... I can remember Chris Pinhollow. He was a Hawaiian, but he was Caucasian. He just happened to be born in Hawaii.

Ketay:
His ancestry wasn't Hawaiian. He was just born there.

Keffer:
No, he was just born there. He just said, "You can just talk all you want to." He said, "I don't want a black as a friend. I have no interest in their culture, no more than I expect them to have in mine." He said, "I am just not interested." He said, don't want them around. I just don't want to be around them." That's why, at that time, there were no blacks in the fraternity. There are now, but there certainly wasn't then.

Ketay:
How do you think those attitudes manifested themselves?

Keffer:
And he was the one that came up with a terrible slur. That's another thing that I'll never forget. It was a terrible slur. And it was mixed in with rivalry with the fraternities. The Sigma Nu fraternity at that time had in their covenant that neither slaves nor the sons of slaves would be eligible for membership. That's all gone now; it's not in their creed anymore. But at that time, it was. So, this person came up with this horrible thing that said, "N****** and Jews, and Sigma Nus."

Ketay:
Oh, my!

Keffer:
Of course, this is what would precipitate all evening and early morning discussions about why he felt that way. And he wasn't the only one. I just mention him because he was the one that was most pronounced and the most blatant. There were others in the fraternity that couldn't tell you why they would not pledge a black person, but they wouldn't. Luckily, though, that was not the prevailing mood in the fraternity. As I told you, in the 1950s, the students were what we would call liberal. Just like up until the 1980s, as a matter of fact, college students in the aggregate were viewed as young and liberal.

Ketay:
Times have certainly seemed to have changed.

[Tape 1, Side 2]

Keffer:
It certainly has. But I said up to the early 1980s.

Ketay:
Okay, continuing on, we were talking about your fraternity brothers.

Keffer:
Most of them, the majority, would be considered very open-minded, but there was also a small minority that felt very strongly not only about blacks but about Jews, about Orientals -- the same way. But, as I say, those were a distinct minority.

Ketay:
How did their dislike of minorities manifest itself?

Keffer:
Most of the time just in comments to other fraternity brothers -- most of the time. If they saw someone in the company of blacks, they would always mention it to those they were with.

Ketay:
Did they ever say anything at that time?

Keffer:
Not at the time. At least they waited until afterward.

Ketay:
Sounds like "Prince Charming."

Keffer:
Yes.

Ketay:
So, the general attitude of the student body was fairly sensitive, and the general attitude of the faculty was fairly accepting as well.

Keffer:
Yes. You see, actually, that's a strength the university has -- a part of its cultural history -- which I'm very proud of. The mainstay is that we have always been very accommodating and very progressive in our attitudes with respect to topics of the period, no matter what they are. Donna Trammel said it -- I thought beautifully -- in her special musical history for the [1990 University of North Texas] centennial. At the very beginning, Joshua Chilton knew that "coed" [co-educational] was the only way to go, when the history of that time of teachers institutions was that females weren't allowed. Males were teachers. But he insisted that males and females would go to North Texas Normal College for teacher training. And so they did.

Ketay:
And so J. C. Matthews seemed to be following in that...

Keffer:
In that tradition.

Ketay:
... in that tradition. You had mentioned that he and Alex Dickie, the registrar...

Keffer:
Alex Dickie. But it was Gladys Bates. She's such a wonderful character. I could go on for hours about her. She was wonderful.

Ketay:
And so the two of them just couldn't quite seem to find the young lady's class schedule, and you felt that it was "by design."

Keffer:
I will always be convinced that it was by design.

Ketay:
Why?

Keffer:
Just because I happen to know both of those individuals involved. I recall Matthews. We didn't always agree on everything, but I knew where his commitments were.

Ketay:
And where were they?

Keffer:
And they were in maintaining an institution of higher education in Texas that would indeed produce the leaders for the state and the region, and that it had nothing to do with the color of a person's skin, period.

Ketay:
But at the same time, J. C. Matthews had admitted Tennyson Miller as a graduate student in 1954 and then Mrs. Sephas as the first black undergraduate in February, 1956.

Keffer:
But I said that he was not a crusader.

Ketay:
No, but while you're saying that he was doing that and did admit, with some discussion, only because it was the first...

Keffer:
Well, he was also educating his board of regents.

Ketay:
In what manner?

Keffer:
Well, see, we didn't have our own regents until later. At the time, we were under the Teachers College Board, which was a separate board. West Texas State Teachers [College], East Texas State [College], and others were under that. [Editor's note: At the time of desegregation, North Texas State College did have a separate board of regents.] The norm then was not to have blacks in public schools. In his own way, he was having to teach them [the regents] that this was something that needed to be done, not out of legal consideration, even though he did point that out. Matthews said several times that it would ultimately come to a legal consideration. He wanted this university to have already passed that and not be forced, like some of our sister institutions.

Ketay:
That kind of puts J. C. Matthews in kind of a "yeah, but" situation, meaning that he had admitted Tennyson Miller as a graduate student, but he had denied admission to Joe Louis Atkins...

Keffer:
As an undergraduate.

Ketay:
... as an undergraduate. So, the two seem inconsistent with me. Help me clear this up.

Keffer:
Well, to me it's so typically Matthews. As I say, he was not a firebrand or a crusader, and by not causing a brouhaha [fuss] his view was to integrate at the graduate level, and then the undergraduate level -- not all at one time, but in steps. Many local school districts and colleges in the state of Texas utilized the stair step [approach]. Public schools integrated the first grade one year, the second grade the next, and so on. Then there were other school districts where they had a predominance of blacks that just went [gesture of sudden eruption]. Then you had all of the court cases. School districts were saying, "What do we do with this school over here and all of these facilities that used to be all-black or predominately black? Do we just abandon them?" On another matter, but not racial, Chris, the other side of that is being discussed in Texas. I'm very concerned about the issue of vouchers.

Ketay:
Yes.

Keffer:
You know, for public schools. What do you do with those facilities? Abandon them and all that's invested in them? I don't think so.

Ketay:
It's going to be an interesting issue to see how it comes out.

Keffer: But, at any rate, Matthews was using that step-by-step approach: "I will educate all those around me and at the same time move the institution forward." Now I'm sure that if we had another president, that president would have done it differently, but you can't change history.

Ketay:
Yes, you never know.

Keffer: Ron [Marcello] will love that (laughter)!

Ketay:
(Laughter) It depends on who's writing it!

Keffer:
Well, absolutely. That's why we have a number of books -- I have a number of them on [President] Harry Truman -- because everyone has their own perspective. I happen to like [David] McCullough's, but my good friend, Don Pickens [of the UNT History Department], happens to like another author on the same topic. So, luckily, we have different perspectives, but one cannot change history. You know, the Soviets tried that. For many years, they edited their history, or sanitized their history, to where it would appear as history. That was exposed as a sham, and that it wasn't history. It goes on today.

Let me tell you about something that maybe will help you. Marsha, when we went to Louisiana Tech... I was on joint appointment at Louisiana Tech as a faculty member in the Department of History and Government and as assistant dean of students. Marsha taught at Grambling. She was one of four Caucasians on the faculty at Grambling College [a traditionally black college] at that time. Ruston [Louisiana] was in the Bible Belt, very conservative. We had never... I mean, that was never a thing, in other words, whether someone was black or not. I was fascinated with jazz musicians, for example, Miles Davis. Our first year there, it was just hysterical. She [Marsha] had the French Club. She taught French. She had members of the French Club for a French dinner. And whenever they started arriving, you could see the neighbors all had their blinds down, but most of them had them up like this [gesture] because that just wasn't done, especially in that neighborhood. Even when they would have a big... Alpha Phi Alpha [reference to a traditionally all-black college fraternity] had a very large chapter at Grambling, and they would entertain twice a year with tremendous dances. Marsha and I always loved to go, because there was quite a feast of shrimp and prawns and crawfish -- just huge. It was just wonderful! But there at Grambling, back to this color business, they would say, "You're not white; you're pink."

Ketay:
(Chuckle)

Keffer:
And that was when one of the faculty members, about "three sheets to the wind" [drunk] as the evening wore on... we'd been dancing, and he came up to Marsha, and he said, "Come on. I'm going to make a soul sister out of you." She said, "'Hon,' I'm sorry, but by happenstance of birth, that makes it impossible." (laughter) She said, "Even if I wanted to, I couldn't."

Ketay:
How funny. Marsha is a "hoot" anyway. But I'm still having some difficulty with...

Keffer:
With Matthews.

Ketay:
... with Matthews. He willingly allowed graduate students but forced the university to be sued to admit undergraduates.

Keffer:
Yes. As I say, another president might have done it differently, but he knew that by forcing a suit, you see, that would put it in legal terms, that he had maintained all along that it was illegal.

Ketay:
Illegal to keep them out?

Keffer:
Yes. And he just couldn't convince, evidently, the others for whom he worked...

Ketay:
The regents.

Keffer:
... that that was the way to go. Evidently... and I don't know. I am not privy to any of that, but evidently there were some vocal firebrands on the other side of that issue at the time -- the "By God, make 'em go to court! We'll win there, too!" You know, that attitude.

Ketay:
That did come up in several of the different interviews that I read with J. C. Matthews and some of the others involved. One of the other reasons that was given was from a public relations standpoint. The university, for those students whose families were very adamantly against it, could say, "See, they made us do it." How fairly do you feel that would...

Keffer:
Yes. I would say that is a part of it -- not the whole, but a part of it. He just did not want... and he would do the same thing if he were here today. He did not want the campus to be interrupted, period.

Ketay:
I can see that.

Keffer:
The mission was what had to be maintained. If there were any interruptions to that process, he was very concerned.

Ketay:
We've been talking about J. C. Matthews. Tell me more about him. What kind of a guy was he?

Keffer:
(Laughter) I have been just so critical of Carl Matthews in the past. For seventeen years, that's too long for anyone to be president. They ought to leave when they're here ten years, I mean, on their tenth year. We need new blood in administration hierarchies just like we do elsewhere. That's really interesting for me to say that, because I've been here for over 106 years [facetious remark]. My good friend Chet Newland, who is married to his profession, literally, always said, "Move every four years. It doesn't matter what. Then you'll stay intellectually sharp." But at any rate, that's Chet Newland. You'd have to know him to appreciate that. He's a wonderful person. But the mission of the university, with Carl Matthews, was number one. Many times, like I say, I have been so critical of him, because he made every decision. He ran the college like a headmaster.

Ketay:
Meaning what?

Keffer:
Meaning that everything was a pyramid. He ran the faculty; he ran the staff; he ran the students. Every decision was his ultimately. He had a very, very small circle of people that he would take advice from. One of them was Imogene Dickey.

Ketay:
The dean of women.

Keffer:
Yes, and one of them being Jim Rogers, whom he later brought into the administration.

Ketay:
At one point Jim Rogers was the director of public affairs.

Keffer:
Yes. And then he was also, later on, vice-president for administration. Oh, goodness, Chris, Carl Matthews!

Ketay:
I had heard that the "J. C." stood for something else.

Keffer:
James Carl (chuckle). Well, my mother met him. When my mother first met him in the hall over there [gesture], it was in the hall of the then new Administration Building. She was flabbergasted when I introduced him to her as the president, because she thought that he was an education professor.

Ketay:
Well, he was.

Keffer:
He had been. But he was now president of the university. She said, "You're not kidding me. That's not some friend of yours." And I said, "No." She said, "I can't believe that man is the president." She was basing it purely on physical attributes. He was frail, and he was not outgoing. He was fairly shy publicly and introverted, but he had a wonderful sense of humor that no one ever knew about. The best one that I ever heard... back then Blue Key on Honors Day would always host a dinner. Mortar Board would do the convocation, and Blue Key would have a dinner. We had the dinner scheduled in the new Coliseum, and we did. The speaker was the lieutenant governor. This was after Carl Matthews had retired as president. It was Lieutenant Governor [William] Hobby. He was introduced by [Bob] Armstrong, then the Secretary of Agriculture for the State of Texas. Armstrong's introductory speech (chuckle) was long, Chris. It was longer than the lieutenant governor's! So, after it was over, he [Matthews] and Imogene were leaving, and Imogene said, "Dr. Matthews, what did you think of the evening?" He said ([Keffer imitating Matthews], "I think that one speech would have been sufficient." (laughter)

Ketay:
You mentioned that everything was kind of "top down."

Keffer:
Oh, yes. For example, even the colors. That's why the university grew past him. That was why even the regents recognized that. It was no longer possible to make every decision. He chose the colors for the classrooms in the buildings.

Ketay:
Oh, my!

Keffer:
We would even say that President Matthews chose the toilet paper (chuckle). As I told, you, God, I had so many disagreements with him because I wanted him to be a firebrand. I wanted him to be out there in public, turning the university around and opening those windows. But our main difference, and it remains to this day... unfortunately, he's not able to comprehend that. But to this day there is his attitude about alumni. That's why we're "babies" in fund-raising for a public institution of our size and our age. For seventeen years, he actively, actively, fought any development [fund-raising], period, for the university. He certainly did not want an alumni organization, because he maintained that if you actively pursue development, you let people give money to the institution, and let them have a strong alumni organization, first thing you know, they're running the university, not you.

Ketay:
An unfortunate decision.

Keffer:
And saving the institution money was another thing that influenced him. I was not party to this, but from a historical perspective he was saying about Arlington State College [now the University of Texas at Arlington] at that time: "Let them get the engineering school, because it's far too expensive for us." That was very unfortunate.

Ketay:
Very unfortunate. I know that the faculty learned from Dr. Matthews in a faculty meeting that the university had been sued, had lost the suit, and we were going to be admitting [black] undergraduate students. How did the students learn about that?

Keffer:
In the Chat [the student newspaper]. Of course, word-of-mouth, like wildfire. Over coffee and cigarettes in the SUB [Student Union Building]. [Editor's note: The interviewee was not on campus at North Texas State College in 1956.]

Ketay:
What was the scuttlebutt? What was everybody saying?

Keffer:
"At long last." They were talking about the Far West and East Coast schools integrating. "Well, at long last, we're going to join the twentieth century. We're going to let everybody in." For most of them, being what would now be considered liberal, that was their attitude: "Well, at long last."

Ketay:
What were other media saying?

Keffer:
Some of them, students, were embarrassed during that period of time.

Ketay:
Why?

Keffer:
Well, here we were handing a suit to them. Carl Matthews and the administration and so forth were hanging on to the last vestiges of an all-Caucasian, all-white school. This was not the case. But, none the less, that was the perception, and, as you well know, the perception is reality to the perceiver.

Ketay:
Yes. And then there was Abner [Haynes].

Keffer:
Yes.

Ketay:
Yes.

Keffer:
Abner came and then many years later Joe Greene [reference to the North Texas State University star football player, who made a successful NFL career with the Pittsburgh Steelers] and several others who've really left their mark on the institution. I had Abner Haynes's brother in class. He was a minister. I had him in one of my government classes. Abner was a lot of fun. He had a great sense of humor. He wasn't the brightest person in the world, but he sure did work hard.

Ketay:
Abner worked hard as well.

Keffer:
I talked to Abner. They both realized that they weren't the brightest things since diamonds, but they knew why they must work hard and meet the demands made of them.

Ketay:
Why?

Keffer:
They needed to work hard in order to progress and help others understand why they should be here -- they as blacks. Which is true.

Ketay:
So, Abner understood his role and the importance of that.

Keffer:
Yes. And he had such a good sense of humor, Chris.

Ketay:
That's what I hear.

Keffer:
He had more fun. Even down in Houston, which I was telling you about. Here again, I think the president made the right decision. The one hotel that they were booked into wasn't going to let Abner in. He was afraid he was going to have to stay at another hotel. Well, the coach just said, "We just all will be staying at another hotel." (chuckle)

Ketay:
Oh, my. But at the same time, the university did not allow young black men to live in the residence halls. The same students that he had insisted stay together off-campus could not stay together on-campus. That seems odd to me.

Keffer:
That's just another step of the progression.

Ketay:
So, where did the guys live?

Keffer:
In Southeast Denton, with family.

Ketay:
Southeast Denton, which was the black section then.

Keffer:
Well, it's still predominately black.

Ketay:
Still predominately black.

Keffer:
Even though the incursion of Southridge out there has made somewhat of a difference, it's still predominately black.

Ketay:
The first young ladies, black young ladies, were allowed to live in the residence halls, I want to say, in the fall of 1957, if memory serves.

Keffer:
In 1957 or 1958.

Ketay:
Real close to that. What do you remember the reaction of the students to that?

Keffer:
I do remember talking with Director Dick Greer.

Ketay:
Mr. Greer?

Keffer:
Yes. He was talking about how initially, and still somewhat later on, many expressed concern to him that they did not want a black roommate. There were some that said, "I would like to have a black roommate." But those were in the minority. Most of those parents were against having black roommates -- on the assignment of rooms in a residence hall where there were blacks.

Ketay:
So, the issue was more of concern to the parents than it was...

Keffer:
Evidently, it was predominately a concern with the females and not with the males, because once the males started living there... I don't know why that is. Probably a sociologist could tell us why that was. Most of the inquiries came from parents of Caucasian female students, worrying about their daughter having a black as a roommate.

Ketay:
At the same time, some of the things I was reading indicated that they would put the young ladies in kind of a suite...

Keffer:
Yes, initially.

Ketay:
... with separate restroom facilities.

Keffer:
Initially, but that was short-lived.

Ketay:
It was short-lived.

Keffer:
Here again, it's part of that step-by-step mentality that: "We don't want to do anything that's going to cause a big brouhaha or a big demonstration" and so forth that many other big schools had. The University of Texas at Austin had it; Texas Tech in Lubbock had it.

Ketay:
Each of those schools had problems with desegregation.

Keffer:
Oh, Houston, especially. The University of Houston integrated all at one time. They dragged their feet as long as they could. It was awful.

Ketay:
Things seemed to go fairly quietly at North Texas.

Keffer: Oh, they did!

Ketay:
One of the things I read indicated that Dr. Matthews had directed the physical plant personnel to go around, and if they saw anything, cross burnings or graffiti, it was to be taken care of immediately.

Keffer:
Oh, yes, and not get to the media.

Ketay:
And not get to the media?

Keffer:
Here again, he was like a headmaster talking at the fall faculty meeting. He didn't have much to say about it, but he stressed how important it was to not get the media involved. It wasn't just with racial things. It was with anything. If there was a dispute of some kind, he wanted that to be handled internally and not to be made public. That was why some of us -- and I say some of us -- were very critical of Carl Matthews. We felt that there were some things that needed to be aired in public. Of course, admitting black students to school here was not one of them. But there were other considerations of the "town-and-gown" relationship that we felt that ought to be a public discussion.

Ketay:
At this point, you were still at the undergraduate level.

Keffer:
Yes, because I finished my undergraduate work in 1959 and then finished my master's in 1960 and went on to post-graduate work. Carl Matthews is just an interesting person, but he could try the patience of Job because he was just so patient. But he was making every decision, and he had a very tight wall, circle, of advisors. He rarely sought advice. He was just like a typical headmaster. That's all I can say about Carl Matthews. He was just like a headmaster -- everything. Oh, he could infuriate the faculty, and he could be vicious. As a good example -- this hasn't got anything to do with racial issues -- there was a professor in the English Department, a marvelous person, who was very outspoken about things with Carl's leadership and other things not having to do with Matthews. He was outspoken about a great many things. He was so critical of Matthews. Back then he never got a raise. Others got raises, but he didn't. The same thing happened to an internationally known and recognized person over in biology who has left his mark in the university. But Matthews would not give him a raise for a number of years. Oh, he had is favorites.

Ketay:
So, it was clearly "my way or the highway."

Keffer:
You betcha.

Ketay:
To what extent was that the case with this decision and how it was implemented?

Keffer:
Probably that his way was best. Any of the other ideas, if they ran counter to that [what Matthews wished], would be dismissed out of hand, I feel quite sure. Now, I wasn't "on the inside" [privy to first-hand information]. Imogene could confirm a lot of that, if she were able. Unfortunately, they are no longer able. They already have [done an interview with] her in the University of North Texas Oral History Project. I'm not sure, but they covered a wide range of topics. I'm in that [interview] with respect to the panty raids

Ketay:
Yes, you are, Joe Lindsay! I read that story! And you've told me that story.

Keffer:
Yes. At any rate, she could probably confirm that it was "his way," especially if there was a rather strong opinion otherwise. Then that would just convince him that he was right.

Ketay:
I wish I had the opportunity to meet him. He sounds like a fascinating guy.

Keffer:
Yes. I spent many years not wanting to know him. Then after I got to know him, I spent several delightful hours with him at various things both as a student and then as a faculty member and then as a staff member.

Ketay:
How did you get to know him so well as a student?

Keffer:
I was always an advisor to student organizations.

Ketay:
As a student?

Keffer:
Oh, as a student I got know him because I was an activist. I was in student government and various things and Blue Key, and we always wanted to have the president at the pinning [initiation ceremony] and so forth. So, I got to know him.

Ketay:
So, you were an involved student?

Keffer:
Absolutely. Then as a faculty member it was the same thing because I was advising student organizations. He would come and make a speech. He had the most interesting way of speaking, though. He would put you to sleep in ten minutes if one were not interested in what he was saying, because his voice [mimicking Dr. Matthews] had a higher quality to it. I can't mimic him. It was just like I told you about: "I think that one speech would have been sufficient."

I think I mentioned the professor... one time at a faculty convocation, he [Matthews] turned to Jim Rogers and said [mimicking Matthews], "Dr. Rogers, are we all bright-eyed and... " he paused. He was obviously going to say "bushy-tailed" and ready for the... "Are we all bright-eyed and... " From the back of the room, a professor stood up and said, "And retired, James Carl!" (laughter) Martin Shockley [of the English Department] said this.

Ketay:
(Laughter) Oh, my gosh.

Keffer:
Martin Shockley was wonderful, wonderful. I'm sure you read this. I'm glad there's not another one, thank God, but he's just a wonder. He used to freeze us out. I had him for English. He'd come in in the mid-winter, and he was a fresh air nut. He'd say, "Open those windows! Get some fresh air! Get some new ideas!" (laughter) And we'd all be sitting there [shivering], and there he was, in short sleeves.

Ketay:
He enjoyed it.

Keffer:
Yes. Another one was John Keene Gwin Silvey [chair of the Biology Department], who crossed swords with Matthews on a number of things. Imogene told me that Carl thought Silvey wanted to be president.

Ketay:
Oops.

Keffer:
Silvey did not want to be president. He had no interest in administration whatsoever. His interest was in the students and in the pursuit of his chosen academic discipline. But nothing could sway Carl from that [belief]. Gwin worked through many years without getting a raise. Of course, Gwin said that "Carl can't help it. You've just got to move on." (chuckle)

Ketay:
We talked a little bit about Denton earlier, and about how the blacks were relegated to the balcony...

Keffer:
Yes, in the theater and then to the kitchen in some restaurants, not all. Yet, for the most part, in the restaurants it mirrored like out here in our food service -- it was all black

Ketay:
As servers and staff, but not to be served.

Keffer:
Yes, not to be served. But again, many of the people, with the university or college being such a large part of the community at that time, saw that businesses and so forth silently went about serving blacks and did away with some of the racial climate. The movie theaters really were the last to do away with balcony seating for blacks only.

Ketay:
So, the theaters were segregated initially, and the restaurants were segregated initially.

Keffer:
Yes.

Ketay:
In what other ways was Denton segregated?

Keffer:
Oh, business-wise, like, stores -- retail and so forth -- were predominately located in and around Southeast Denton, and that's where they did business.

Ketay:
So, they had their own small community within the larger community.

Keffer:
Yes. Early on, for example, you would never see a black shopping at Russell's.

Ketay:
Russell's?

Keffer:
Russell's Department Store. It still exists today, but not near like it was when it was on the square.

Ketay:
Oh, over by Kroger and Cox Video, over on University [Drive].

Keffer:
They had their own food stores, too, I mean, that were run by blacks.

Ketay:
How big was Denton at that time?

Keffer:
Oh, goodness, Chris, I would stay that at that time it was pushing 25,000 or 30,000.

Ketay:
About the size of [the University of] North Texas now. Goodness!

Keffer:
See, for a long time, it was a sleepy, little ol' college town. It had that small college town environment, but no longer. I enjoy seeing summer come, because there's times during the summer now that I can hear the birds and so forth, as opposed to the long terms when there's all that traffic noises and vans and all that goodie stuff. But, no, they had a community within a community.

Ketay:
Who were the key players in Denton and in the black community?

Keffer:
Well, I think that it started educationally with the long-time principal, Mr. Fred Moore. The blacks attended Frederick Douglass [later renamed Fred Moore School]. He had a lot to do with attitudes. Business-wise, I wasn't familiar with any of those people until much later on -- business leaders. You know, there are still relatively few black business leaders. One of them is Fred Hill, who happens to own Lone Star Car Wash, part-owner of Lone Star and People's Funeral Home and so forth. He is a retired military person and is active in the Chamber of Commerce and the Rotary, etc. But there's still just a very few "business" leaders in Denton that are black. I don't know. They may have some in their... that community within a community still exists to a great extent but, of course, not the great extent that it used to be, so I haven't had an opportunity to... I only know those that are in the Rotary.

Ketay:
Denton seemed a bit more reticent to segregate.

Keffer:
[They] still are. It still is.

Ketay:
It still is?

Keffer:
You know, time does wonderful things, but within the business community and within the power structure of Denton, there's still an attitude that blacks are not a big part of our community. Well, they're wrong. In my opinion, Chris, the one thing that is going to make the difference is the increasing population of Hispanics in our community. If that keeps on, and especially statewide, then Caucasians will certainly not be in the majority any longer. It will be Hispanics, rather than blacks. That's one of the things I learned on this task force with the city of Denton. I was on the subcommittee studying demographics. A Standard Metropolitan Area [SMA]... now they don't call it that anymore, Chris, but I'm a creature of habit. Our Standard Metropolitan Area includes seven counties in North Texas. For five of those counties, you can almost interchange on the graph the increase in populations in the levels of blacks and Hispanics and the leveling off and decrease of the Caucasians. All except for two counties: Collin County and Denton County. Caucasians are increasing in those two counties. Blacks are leveling off and somewhat decreasing, and Hispanics are increasing slowly.

Ketay:
It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years. One of the incidents I read about was the so-called "Campus Theatre Incident." Two NT students, a young white man and a young black lady, decided to go to the Campus Theatre. That was one of those "Heck, no, I won't go" kind of places.

Keffer:
Oh, what's his name -- the long-time manager of the Campus Theatre?

Ketay:
If you'd say it, I'd say you were right.

Keffer:
Harrison.

Ketay:
We were both close.

Keffer:
I'm not familiar with that. What happened? I must have been asleep.

Ketay:
Well, apparently, they were going to...

Keffer:
He wasn't going to let them...

Ketay:
Oh, no!

Keffer:
Or did they stage it?

Ketay:
It was somewhat staged. It seems there was a faculty member or two who were assisting in coordinating it. Apparently, the story goes, they had tried to do a couple of things before but didn't have enough people to pull it off. This was the first time they had people that could do it. He wasn't going to let it happen. The editor of the Denton Record-Chronicle was there, more out of proximity than anything else. It was the one situation, in my reading for background information, that if there was going to be something that could have easily had gotten out of hand, that probably would have been it.

Keffer:
It would have been the spark.

Ketay:
Dr. Matthews, the way the story goes... and it's him telling the story, so you never know.

Keffer:
Well, that's true.

Ketay:
But the story also goes that he met with a group of students in what used to be a soda shop across the street. I guess it would be where Rick's Place is now.

Keffer:
Oh, Perryman-Williams Drug.

Ketay:
They had regular group meetings with students, kind of serving almost as a mentor and helping to choreograph all of this. If I had one overall impression of how this was all laid out, "choreographed" would be the word. How would you assess that?

Keffer:
I would say, yes, most definitely. The interesting thing, though, in meetings at Perryman-Williams is that he would never meet... in other words, to him that was going to their environment. That's really not the case, but nonetheless to him it was. He would never have that same type of regular meeting with students here [on campus] -- with groups of students. Student leaders, one-on-one? I could tell you where everything was in that [Matthews] office. But he would do that.

Ketay:
We've talked about a number of different elements. Is there any element that I've left out that we need to add?

Keffer:
I don't think so. At the very beginning, the overall choreography, which was really excellent, was keeping the media uninformed, keeping them out of sensational journalism. His and Gladys's "inability" to find a black student's class schedule was just excellent. It was just well done, Carl and Gladys (chuckle)! Well done!

Ketay:
He would allow some media on the campus, but he would not allow them in the classroom.

Keffer:
Not in the classroom. Here again, that goes back, Chris, to the mission [of the university]. That man was fully committed to the mission.

Ketay:
Mission first?

Keffer:
First, last, and always -- the mission!

Ketay:
North Texas seemingly integrated so peacefully. I'm sure there were words back and forth here and there.

Keffer:
Yes, there were little incidents. I'm sure it took place in the business community, you know, as they began to go in and order a hamburger. There was a hamburger shop down there...

Ketay:
Down there? Where?

Keffer:
Down there on Locust, down from... I can't think of the cross street. It's down on Locust where the vacuum cleaning station is, and it was for a long time Matt's Used Automobiles. [Editor's note: Keffer is referring to the Ju-cy Pig restaurant.]

Ketay:
I think that's Pearl.

Keffer:
Is that Pearl? No, I don't think so. Pearl becomes McKinney. This is the street that the Chamber of Commerce sits on, whatever that street is.

Ketay:
Just before Congress.

Keffer:
Yes. At any rate, he had a hamburger thing there, and he was very pronounced that he didn't want to serve blacks and probably wouldn't serve them if they came. But somehow someone changed his mind, which dealt with how much money blacks would have, especially at the beginning of the school, that they would spend on fast food and hamburgers. So, he served them. He didn't like to. He was the one that told Jack Baker [reference to a local florist] and myself [Keffer mimicking the voice of J. C. Burch, the Ju-Cy Pig restaurant owner], "Why don't you boys buy this place?" He said, "It would be a good investment for you boys." And we said, "No." Of course, he retired a multi-millionaire.

Ketay:
Laughing all the way to the bank.

Keffer:
All from flipping hamburgers. Jack and I often refer to that and say, "We sure should have kicked our hiney!"

Ketay:
North Texas desegregated so peacefully, and you mentioned that [Texas] Tech and Houston and UT Austin did not go well.

Keffer:
Well, they all had the media involved. They had students protesting and all that stuff. They were doing that, of course, because they had an audience with the media.

Ketay:
So, the media provided that audience.

Keffer:
Oh, yes.

Ketay:
And the same day that Mrs. Sephas started as an undergraduate student here in February, 1956, Miss [Autherine] Lucy was starting, or attempting to start, at [the University of] Alabama, and all hell was breaking loose.

Keffer:
What do you think were the salient differences contributing to that? One being that Texas isn't part of the cradle of the Confederacy. That's very important. Because, again, many parts of Texas, well, especially in East Texas, blacks had begun to be a real force in the community. But most importantly, they were a political force. But the key, as I said before, was keeping the media uninvolved or uninformed. In this case this was why it was able to go, in many aspects, easily. Here in North Central Texas, the institution [North Texas State College] had always been progressive with respect to a number of things. We didn't have the same historical leg irons to a way of life that many still, to this day, I assume, want to return to, although I'm not so sure that they do. But the social structure in the cradle of the Confederacy was remarkably different than Texas. Texas is more Southwest, and I think that made a difference, Chris. I don't know, but I think it did. Here again, a sociologist could probably tell us why. But it made a distinct difference of why there wasn't a brouhaha here, and in Alabama there was a brouhaha, and also in Mississippi and Georgia and even Florida.

Ketay:
But you mentioned that there was a brouhaha at Tech.

Keffer:
Well, that's because there were so few blacks that lived in West Texas, and as they began to show up on campus, it was like, "I don't know what those people are. They may be foreign, as far as I'm concerned!" (chuckle).

Ketay:
Lindsay, we're out of tape. I can't begin to thank you for sharing your time and thoughts.

Copyright © 1996 The Board of Regents of the University of North Texas in the City of Denton

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