University of North Texas Oral History Collection

Interview with Pat N. McLeod
Interviewer: Dr. Ronald E. Marcello
Place of Interview: Denton, Texas.
Date of Interview: February 25, 1998

Dr. Marcello:
This is Ron Marcello interviewing Pat McLeod for the University of North Texas Oral History Program. The interview is taking place on February 25, 1998, in Denton, Texas. I'm interviewing Dr. McLeod in order to get his reminiscences and experiences while he was a member of the faculty at, what was then, North Texas State College during the desegregation of the college. This process of desegregation took place in the Graduate School in the summer of 1954, and then the undergraduate student body was desegregated in February, 1956, and finally, the football program was desegregated in September, 1956.

Pat, to begin this interview, I need to get some biographical information. Tell me when you were born and where.

Dr. McLeod:
I was born on June 9, 1924, in Florence, Texas.

Dr. Marcello:
Tell me a little bit about your education.

McLeod:
I graduated from high school when I was sixteen, and then I came to North Texas and stayed until December, 1942. Then I joined the military. I joined the Navy on December 12, 1942, and served until 1946. I was in the Aleutian Campaign and then the South Pacific Campaign, also.

I came back and went to North Texas. I started in the fall of 1946 and continued until I graduated in May, 1948. When I got out of school in 1948, I worked at Clifton Junior College down in Central Texas, and I taught there for three years -- from 1948 to 1951. When I got the job at Clifton, it was with the understanding that I have a master's degree or be working on a master's. So, I got the job within the first six weeks after graduating and came back and started the master's the second six weeks. I finished in 1951, I guess. Then I taught in the Monahans Independent School District, Monahans, Texas, from 1951 to 1954.

I came back to North Texas on the faculty in 1954 and have been here ever since, which is a long time. Then in 1959, I went to Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan, to work on a doctorate, and I received my doctorate, Ph.D., in 1961 from Michigan State.

Marcello:
What was your major or specialization for your graduate work?

McLeod:
Well, my undergraduate degree is in industrial arts, and I minored in physics, I guess. Then the master's degree was in industrial arts and administration. Then for the doctorate, actually, I had a quadruple major -- counseling, student personnel work, psychology, and vocational education.

Marcello:
Let's go back to your youth in Florence, Texas. First of all, pinpoint Florence. Where was it, and how large was the community?

McLeod:
It's thirty-eight miles north of Austin [Texas] in Williamson County. I grew up on a farm about three-and-a-half miles southeast of Florence. It's on the highway from Florence to Jarrell [Texas]. That little town of Jarrell has had two tornadoes recently -- in the last few years. I graduated from Florence High School.

Marcello:
You mentioned that you graduated at sixteen. Where there only eleven grades?

McLeod:
Yes.

Marcello:
That was pretty common, then, I believe.

McLeod:
I went to a little rural, one-room school for the first five years. Then we went into a "really big school" [facetious comment], you know, Class B then or Class 1-A now. So, I took the test and everything, and they said, "Well, you need to be put in the seventh grade," so I actually skipped the sixth grade. I don't know. I still think that I wouldn't want to go back to that, certainly, but the one-room schools had some advantages, too. You didn't have any fear of the next grade because you knew what was going on because you had heard it every day in there. Of course, I wouldn't want to go back to that, either (chuckle).

Marcello:
You mentioned that you were born and raised on a farm. Was this a family farm, or was this...?

McLeod:
Yes.

Marcello:
Your folks owned the farm?

McLeod:
Yes. Well, my father died when I was nine, and my mother died when I was fourteen. I "batched it" [worked alone] and finished school. I also worked on the farm and made a very meager livelihood, shall we say.

Marcello:
Did you have any siblings?

McLeod:
Oh, gosh, yes! Let's see. I was the youngest of about, I think, eleven children altogether. I believe that was right.

Marcello:
You mentioned that your parents both died when you were relatively young, so am I to assume that the siblings then pitched in and operated the farm?

McLeod:
Well, yes and no. It was rented out. Then a sister, who was blind -- an older sister -- stayed there, and we lived there. They had someone [a tenant] come in and stay part of the time. Then part of the time no one was there -- just us.

Marcello:
You mentioned that you were "batching," to use your word (chuckle). What were you doing specifically?

McLeod:
Just, well, living on the farm and doing whatever I could to make a living. We would milk some cows, and we sold milk. We cut firewood with an ax. We did whatever we could to make a dollar.

Marcello:
What was the principal crop on that farm?

McLeod:
Cotton, corn, grain -- like, maize -- and so forth.

Marcello:
Approximately how many acres was that farm?

McLeod:
We had 182 acres.

Marcello:
You mentioned awhile ago that it was rented out after your folks died?

McLeod:
Yes.

Marcello:
But you still continued to live on the farm?

McLeod:
Yes.

Marcello:
In other words, somebody just came there to plow the land and raise the crops and so on?

McLeod:
Yes. I forget what they would called it. Sharecropping, I think. The person [actually farming] got two-thirds, and the family got one-third or something like that.

Marcello:
You were born and raised in what we would call a rural area. At that time, what would you say was the attitude of, say, you and your siblings toward African Americans?

McLeod:
No problem. One of my best friends -- and I still consider him to be a very good friend, although I haven't seen him now in several years -- was a young a black man by the name of Jesse Fisher. Also, he was one of the most capable individuals that I've ever known.

At that time they had the African-American students segregated. Unfortunately, it was so, so wrong. Anyway, they had a little "separate" [exclusively for African Americans] school out on the edge of town, out in the country, really. It was just horrible. They might have gone to school for three or four months out of the year. There were, obviously, no [toilet] facilities, no running water, no nothing. It was just horrible.

This young man was capable. He would go out to the local junkyard where people had thrown away things, like, clocks and stuff like that, and he would get those and repair them. When he went into the military...he volunteered and went into the Air Force with basically no education. He "tore the top" [scored very high] out of their tests, so they put him in electronics school. That was the greatest thing that ever happened to him, so he did extremely well.

When he came back, he went into business for himself. He was so capable that he could do anything. Primarily, he and I had a business together when we both first came out of the military. We wired houses. I was in electronics in the military, so we wired houses. We wired electric motors, generators, whatever. The area was just being electrified. They were putting in Rural Electrification [reference to REA or Rural Electrification Administration] lines in that area, so we wired houses and whatever. Is it okay if I tell another story about Jesse?

Marcello:
Sure.

McLeod:
I hadn't even thought of this in years, but one of very good friends, E. N. Wells by name, had been shot down over Europe while he was in the Air Force. There was a little service station...I hadn't thought of this in years. Anyway, Jesse and I came in one morning to get gasoline, and this fellow [Wells] and I got into a little "discussion" [dispute over racial matters], shall we say.

Anyway, we got back in our car and probably drove for five miles out in the country. Jesse told me: "I wish that you hadn't done that." I said, "No, you're my friend." He said, "Well, he's your friend, too." I said, "Yes, but he made a remark that said that he wasn't a friend."

So, anyway, we went on and came back in the afternoon, and that fellow was in there again [at the filling station], and I thought, "Well, I guess we're just going to have to redo this." (chuckle) So, as quick as I got out of the car and walked in, he did like this [gesture].

Marcello:
He held up his hands up like he had them high.

McLeod:
And he said, "Don't! No! No! No! No!" He said, "I was wrong! You were right!" What I did was that I gave him a good punch. I knocked him down and out, as far as that goes, but that was beside the point.

Marcello:
That was the first encounter in the morning?

McLeod:
Yes. So, that afternoon, he said, "I was wrong. I want to apologize." I said, "No, you don't apologize to me! You apologize to Jesse!"

So, then later on, we were wiring the house of an old rancher of several generations on the Lampasas River, between Florence and Killeen [Texas]. He told us that they would have lunch made for us for the next day and not to bring our lunch. We got ready and went in to lunch. They had a table out on the back porch for Jesse. I said, "No! No, we don't do that! No! Jesse is my friend, and we work together." I said, "He spent his time in the military just like I did, and he's gotten his butt shot at! No! You can take this wiring job, and you can forget it!" He looked at me, and he was a mature gentleman with a big handlebar mustache and all that, and then his wife said, "We're wrong! You're right! This shouldn't have happened!" The man said to Jesse, "Would you please consider accepting our apology, and come in and join us?" I said, "That's the only way it's going to be."

Anyway, those are some of the things that happened back then. They were good people, but this is the way that they had been "raised" and brought up. That, of course, wasn't right then, and it still isn't. Fortunately, it doesn't happen too much anymore, but I'm afraid that it does happen some.

Marcello:
I want to fill in some details here. Going back again to the early deaths of your parents, I assume that since they died so early, you really didn't form any of your opinions concerning race from them, as would be the case with a lot of children.

McLeod:
They were very non-prejudiced -- both of them. My father, like I said, I hardly remember him. The rest of my family, brothers and sisters, in growing up didn't...I got criticized, because I was a friend of Jesse's. I mean, I was criticized by some of the other kids, and I got in some fights with those kids over Jesse, because he was black. Regardless of the color that he was, he was my friend. That's the way it was, and, of course, I still feel that way.

I went by to see Jesse -- it's been probably three years ago -- sometime like this spring, and he's still there. He's crippled up and everything now. Years and years ago -- I don't know whether this is relevant, so you can leave it out -- his wife an Afro-American lady, very attractive, ran off with supposedly one of his best friends, an Anglo. At the time we working together and everything, he wouldn't drink a beer; he wouldn't do anything. Then after all that, he started drinking heavily and so forth, and he's totally an alcoholic and everything now, and he has been for years. That's really unfortunate and really sad.

Marcello:
I want to go back and talk a little bit more about Jesse Fisher. How did this friendship develop?

McLeod:
He was just a good kid. All of the farm kids worked during the week after school and before school and all of that. So, on Saturday we'd get together, and the little kids would play marbles there in that little town. That's how I first met him, and we just struck up a friendship. He was just, you know, a quality person, even at that age.

There's another thing that I want to say because it might fit in. Years and years ago...and this just illustrates how capable a man he was, and still is to some extent, I suppose. We bought our electrical supplies in Austin out of a wholesale place. So, anyway, I had never heard of Ross Perot at that time, and Jesse hadn't either, but that was when Perot still had EDS [Electronic Data Systems] down on one of the freeways going into Dallas [Texas], I guess, whatever the freeway is there. Anyway, Jesse told me this story one time when I was back there, and he thought that it was real amusing.

Jesse got a call from Ross Perot, and Perot wanted to know if he could send his plane down to Austin to pick Jesse up, and would he come up to Dallas and look at a problem that Perot had. He said that he had had some problem and asked if Jesse couldn't fix it some way. He said that the man who ran the business in Austin somewhere...I don't remember how that man had met Ross Perot, but, anyway, Perot was telling him about some problems that he had with some of his electronics and everything -- his computers.

Anyway, they had hauled in all these high-powered engineers, who couldn't find the problem. This man said, "There's an old n***** boy up at Florence, Texas, who can fix that." Perot said, you know, that he didn't believe it.

So, anyway, Perot called Jesse, and he went up to Dallas. Jesse said that they took him in, and he said, "All right, what is the equipment not doing what it is supposed to do?" Jesse said, "They told me," and he told me, also, that he chuckled. He said, "I felt like I knew what it was." He said, "But I wanted to see all that. I've never seen anything like that before." They showed him all around. He went back, and he told me...and I don't remember exactly, but I remember the gist of it. Because it didn't do what it was supposed to and how it sounded and everything, Jesse said that there was a weak spot in the system. He went back, and he said that it took him probably ten minutes to solve the problem. He put in another condenser, and, of course, a condenser stores electricity. But, anyway, that was a weak spot, and it was breaking down. So, he put another one in, tied them in a series, and said, "Now try it."

It just kicked right up, and Ross Perot told him to name his salary, whatever it took. He said, "No." He said that he'd better stay down there in Florence.

Of course, many years ago I taught welding, and I taught machine shop and all that. Again, when I went back, I always went to see him everytime I visited my hometown. So, he asked me one day, he said, "Well, don't you know something about teaching welding?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Well, I need to learn about that, too, like, cutting through steel beams and running wiring." He said, "Do you have a have a book or something?" I said, "Well, sure." So, I got back, and I was teaching at Monahans then. I sent him a book put out by Linde Corporation, an oxyacetylene welding handbook. So, anyway, it's also the best book that I've used.

So, I sent Jesse a copy, and probably three months later, I was down there, and he said, "Hey, you want to go out to the house with me?" I said, "Okay." I went out, and he had bought an oxyacetylene rig and so forth, and he could use it as well as I could. He was so sharp. He had read that book and followed the directions.

Then he mentioned, "Do you know something about metal work?" I said, "Yes." He said, "I need to learn how to operate a lathe, a metal cutting lathe." I said, "Okay." So, I sent him a book, Southbend book and everything. I went back, and, again, he had bought a lathe and everything. I went out to see him, and he was cutting threads with this, which is very difficult. He had the right angle; he had made a fifteen degree offset (chuckle). He was cutting threads, and he was cutting tapers that experienced people with years of experience couldn't do. He had had no one to show him. He had read the book, and he was so sharp that he had figured this out. He's just super-intelligent guy.

Marcello:
This is perhaps a leading question, but what I'm gathering is that you perhaps were forming an opinion that if capable African-Americans were given an opportunity, they could excel.

McLeod:
You bet! Absolutely! I feel very strongly about that. He's a good example. I tried my best to get him to do that. I said, "Move to Dallas!" Midland [Texas] was booming at that time with the oil industry. I said, "Jesse, with your ability you could make tons of money." Also, he charged probably one-fourth of what other people charged, because he was African American. I said, "Bull! You've got the ability! You're better than all these people put together, so charge them for it!" Well, no, he didn't want to do that.

Of course, here at North Texas, I had a gentleman in class. In the fall of 1955 was the first time that I had him in class. This fellow had worked for the railroad as...what did they call them? A porter? Conductor? He was a porter.

Marcello:
Probably a porter, if he were black.

McLeod:
Yes. His name was Ulysses S. Grant Cox. His last name was Cox, and the students right away nicknamed him "Useless," so everyone called him "Useless." He was the first black or African-American student that I had had in class. He got along wonderfully, and I've talked to him a number of times since then. He always mentions that he was treated so well here, and not one time did any professor or any student say anything derogatory to him. He told me at the end of the semester...I called him in, and I showed him his grades and everything. ...

He took four courses with me through the years, and I believe that he graduated in 1959. Anyway, he took a course, and each time he improved. Then in the 1960s, I was still teaching. I had come back from Michigan State, and I was teaching and counseling in the summers at first. I had him in class, and he got his master's in counseling. I don't know what all he's done since then, but he has taught in Fort Worth [Texas], and he was an administrator in Fort Worth. Everytime that I talked to him...it's been, you know, many, many years, but, anyway, he always mentions how well he was treated at North Texas -- by faculty and students. He said that it was a great experience. I said, "Well, your attitude and so forth had a lot, probably, to do with that." I mean, he was just good people. He cared. He was here to do the best that he could, so he did a good job with it.

Marcello:
You said that you had him in the fall of 1955. That may be a little off, because the first black undergraduates didn't come until February of 1956. So, maybe it was the fall of 1956?

McLeod:
No, it was the fall of 1955.

Marcello:
That's interesting. Well, you're adamant about that, so that must have been when it was.

McLeod:
Yes. I'll go back and check my records, but I know that it was in the fall of 1955.

Marcello:
And he was an undergraduate?

McLeod:
Yes.

Marcello:
Okay.

McLeod:
This is interesting because in the past I have read things about different persons, such as that. [So-and-So] was the first African-American student here and everything. Then, of course, Abner Haynes was the one who really brought the spotlight, I guess, because of his ability on the football field. I know that that's correct. I know that he was in Industrial Arts 122. I know that's correct, but now you've got me [thinking]. I'm going to go back and look (chuckle). I know that that's right, though. [Editor's note: Dr. McLeod later consulted his personal files and confirmed that Ulysses S. Cox was, indeed, enrolled in Industrial Arts 122 (Section 03), periods six and seven, during the fall, 1955, term. This being the case, North Texas apparently had at least one African-American undergraduate student before the attendance of Mrs. I. E. L. Sephas.]

Marcello:
Well, you seem adamant about that. That even makes the story much better.

McLeod:
I will check to verify, but I know that that's right. I know. I remember very well because he was so unusual. He was the only black student in that entire department at that time. He conducted himself very well. He was good people. Everytime that I've seen him since, he's always been very complimentary and said that I treated him very fairly and that I helped him. I told him, "Well, I didn't really treat you any different than what I try to treat everybody." He said, "Well, I respect that because, yes, you did."

Marcello:
I want to go back to Jesse Fisher again, because I think this is an interesting story. I want to make a comment. In doing other interviews with people who had black friends when they were young, normally, this friendship would pretty much end when each got to a certain age. The white kid continued on to school, and the black kid went out and got a job someplace.

McLeod:
Yes, right. I feel very strongly that, if Jesse were alive right now, I could pick up the phone and call him and say, "Jesse, I'm in trouble. I need [whatever]." If he could get it, there's not a question in my mind that he'd say, "You'll have it immediately." I feel the same way about him. He was a true friend.

Marcello:
How did you guys get together to form this little electrical business? You mentioned that both of you had that kind of training in the military.

McLeod:
In the military, yes. We were talking ... I don't remember word for word or day for day, but we did it after we came out of the military. Anyway, there was a need [for our service], and we needed jobs. I had planned to -- and did -- come back to school in September, but I needed money. That was something that we knew, and it was also a service. That's how he got started with his reputation, doing electrical work not only in a little town there, but doing it probably within a fifty-, seventy-five-mile radius of the town. He did a lot of work in Austin after people found out how good he was, and they called him. He would do their work for, like I said, probably for one-fourth or one-third of what someone else would charge, and it would be done right. I mean, it'd be done correctly.

Marcello:
I would assume that because he was black, people expected him to charge less than the expected rate.

McLeod:
I'm sure that some of them did. Jesse was a handsome young man. He looked like an Anglo with a good tan. Back then, I had a beard. When I was in the military, everything was down to here [gesture], but I cut it off when I came back the States. He had a little, pencil-thin mustache. He was a very handsome man. There's other thing might be of interest. He said that when he was in the military, he had all kinds of opportunities to date very attractive, you know, Anglo girls and everything. He wouldn't because they didn't know the difference. Anyway, he didn't. He was a handsome young man.

Marcello:
How long did this partnership last?

McLeod:
Until I came back to school, probably, like, three months or so in the summer. Then I came back to school. Then the next summer I worked for Brown and Root in Killeen, at the Fort Hood base. Let's see...yes, because we were building tunnels at Grey Air Force Base and everything. Then, in 1948, when I graduated, I had free time for, like, six weeks, I remember, and I worked with him then some. Then I came back to school the second six weeks.

When I was in Monahans, I worked out in the oil patch in the summers. The summer of 1951 and 1952, I worked in South Carolina at the Savannah River plant. I worked for the Atomic Energy Commission in Aiken, South Carolina. In 1953, I "roughnecked" and "roustabouted" out in the oilfield. Then I came back to Denton in 1954. I'm trying to think what I did. I went to school in the summers.

Marcello:
Back to the partnership again, was this a 50-50 sort of proposition?

McLeod:
Yes. We bought the supplies and did the jobs. We just split everything 50-50.

Marcello:
What sort of reaction did you get from your white friends?

McLeod:
Some were critical. I don't like to repeat the word, but, anyway, they said that I was a "n*****-lover." That's what the man said when I "popped" [punched] him [McLeod gestures by smacking his fist into the palm of his hand].

Marcello:
That was going to be my next question. How did you and E. N. Wells, get into that fracas at the filling station?

McLeod:
He said, "Well, here comes the 'n*****-lover.'" When he said that, I "popped" him (chuckle). You know, I really didn't feel badly about it. He knew that he was wrong.

Yes, some of them were critical. Most of the people were ... fortunately, I think, the military helped change a lot of people's attitudes and so forth, because they were with the people of different races and people of color and everything.

I know that growing up in those little towns around in that area, just because someone was from another town, they were bitter enemies automatically. You know that. We'd get into scraps and all that. After we came back, heck, we'd go out and party and drink together and everything, and it was all totally different because you'd been in a little different situation (chuckle).

Marcello:
Now, let's bring this story up to the summer of 1954.

McLeod:
Yes.

Marcello:
You mentioned that you were here in the summer of 1954.

McLeod:
It was fall. I came here in the fall of 1954.

Marcello:
The fall of 1954. Of course, at that time it was North Texas State College?

McLeod:
Right, right.

Marcello:
As you look back, Pat, how would you describe the racial climate in Denton? Then tell about the campus itself.

McLeod:
I would say the climate in Denton was very poor. I don't guess that it was very good because the black section it was referred to as "shacktown" and so forth. I worked at a service station down on south Locust Street, Gulf service station, for a man named Turner Knight. I made fifty cents an hour. I don't tell that to many people because they'd say either one or two things: I was stupid or I was lying (chuckle). I'd rather not be either thing (chuckle). I worked down there, and I got the GI Bill, which was a "whopping" [facetious comment] $65 a month, and that had to pay for everything.

I'm real easy to get along with most of the time, but that's one of the things I feel very strongly about. I feel like I earned all that and a lot more. It was probably the best investment that the United States has ever made, because every year since then, I have paid more in income tax than the money that I got total for the GI Bill. I was overseas. I got my tail shot at. When I got out of the service, I was making a "whopping" $65 a month with overseas pay, you know. I was making $28 a month when I went in, so that was not a real good income.

But as such, working with Turner, that's sort of on the fringe of people from southeast Denton, so they would come by there. A lot of them were customers and so forth, of course. There are "sorry, ratty" whites -- Anglos. There is everything in all races in my opinion. So, being black or being brown' Hispanic, so forth, doesn't make a person. It's what's on the inside, rather than what's on the outside, that makes the difference in people.

Marcello:
Were you saying that this Turner Knight had some sorry racial attitudes?

McLeod:
No, no, no. He was totally the opposite. He had black friends, and that's the reason he had probably the majority of the business from southeast Denton, because he treated the people with respect and dignity. They were just another customer. He was very, very good at that. No, no, Turner was not a racist at all. I feel like maybe some of the "fine old families" of Denton probably were racists. I don't know of any specific examples or people, as far as that goes.

Marcello:
You mentioned, however, that you thought the racial climate in the town itself was pretty bad during that time. Can you elaborate on that?

McLeod:
It probably wasn't much different from any other town in the South. Even though this isn't the deep South, it's still the South.

Digressing for a moment, when I went to Michigan State, the second day we were there, I guess, we went to a movie, and they had a riot up on Grand Avenue, right across from the campus of Michigan State University. It was the blacks and the whites. The blacks, in my opinion, were treated much worse there and in other places I've been in the North than they were in the South. That doesn't mean that they were treated good in the South at all, but it was more, I think, blatant discrimination there and so forth. Some of the people I went to classes with there at Michigan State were, I think, outside of the campus not treated well. So, I have a biased opinion there, I guess. The reason I'm saying this is that I doubt if there was much difference here than anyplace else.

I'm just saying that probably almost everywhere -- universally -- blacks were treated just about the same. They usually had a section of the city [to live in]. Even the small towns had a section where the black people lived and were restricted to live, too. That's just pretty much the way it was everywhere.

Marcello:
And Denton was no different in that regard?

McLeod:
No, no. I don't think that they were any worse. Maybe the situation might even have been some better because of the two universities here.

Marcello:
Okay, you brought up an interesting point, and let me follow through on this. A lot of times one finds racial tensions developing where there is competition for jobs. In Denton you have two universities, and, I assume, perhaps there were probably plenty of jobs for both lower-class whites and blacks, if they wanted these jobs.

McLeod: Yes. I worked in three different jobs when I first came to North Texas as a freshman. I worked in a dormitory up in Chilton Hall "hopping" tables, and almost everyone -- the staff -- were all black. Of course, I got along with them fine, and we were all working together. I'm assuming, probably, that's it's still pretty much that way for no reason other than they do a good job, and they want a job, and they want to work there.

Marcello:
What I think was the case is that Denton was segregated, but there was not really any violence committed against African Americans during that period.

McLeod:
No, not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledge. I sponsored a fraternity, and a large majority of the people in it were athletes. I remember that when the football team was integrated, there were lots of, you know, comments and so forth, but these young men that played with Abner Haynes and Leon King -- I had Leon in class later on, too -- respected them for their athletic ability. There might have been some negative comments, but I did not hear them. They respected them for their ability.

...

I used to go by when I'd go to see student teachers in Dallas. As far as I know, he's still in Dallas. He was a principal there for years and years. I got to know him real well. He said that the only reason that they kept him around was because Abner told them that he [Abner Haynes] wouldn't stay unless they kept him (chuckle). That was not exactly true. Leon was a good athlete, too. He was All-State in high school. He went to Lincoln [High School], and he said that you didn't have to...you know, he played football, and he was All-State. He said that he and Abner didn't go to class or do anything except play ball, so consequently they missed a lot there. But he was very capable, very sharp, because he picked up on that [English deficiency] and went on and got his master's degree.

I talked to him probably a couple or three years ago. He said that he had a daughter that was in high school. I don't know. He said he was going to stay on at least until she graduated, so I don't know if he's still in Dallas.

Marcello:
For the record we're talking about Abner Haynes and Leon King, who desegregated the football program at North Texas State College in the fall of 1956.

McLeod:
Yes, yes. Right, right.

Marcello:
Incidentally, Leon was interviewed several years ago relative to the desegregation of athletics, and at that time he was a middle school principal, and now I believe he's in central administration [in the Dallas Independent School District].

McLeod:
That wouldn't surprise me at all. When I used to go by and see him, he was in a middle school. I went by to see him one day, and I said to the school secretary: "I want to see Mr. King." She got very uncomfortable and nervous, and stuttered and stammered. She said, "Well, I...uh." About this time I heard this "WHAP! WHAP! WHAP! WHAP!" I went in, and I said, "I know where he is." So, I went into the room where he was, and with the gruffest voice I could muster...he had his back to me. He had, I believe, five or six of these kids lined up, and he was giving them swats with a paddle, you know. I said, "Mr. King!" He turned around, and he said, WHOOOEE! I thought that you might be one of these kids' daddies coming in to see me." He said, "These young men are having a little problem." He said, "We're improving communication." (Chuckle) That's a nice way to put it.

Marcello:
We were talking awhile ago about the racial climate in the town. Now, when you were here as a student, either as an undergraduate or as a graduate, particularly around, let's say, the time that African-Americans were admitted, what did you perceive to be that racial climate on campus among the students? We'll start with students first, then go on to faculty and administration.

McLeod: I didn't see any problem because, like, when I was working on my master's, there were black students in the classes with me. If anyone had any problems, they didn't voice it. As far as the Industrial Arts Department, as far as I know, no one had any problems. The students accepted the black students without any problem. If they had any prejudice or anything, they didn't show it -- to my knowledge. I never heard anyone complain about it.

Marcello:
Do you think that you get that kind of an attitude in town and on campus, at least in part, because blacks were so few in number? In other words, even in the town of Denton, you didn't have that many blacks as a percentage of the population and certainly, you know, on campus. For instance, if you go over to East Texas, where maybe the population is 50-50 [equal numbers of blacks and whites], then you get greater racial tensions.

McLeod:
Yes, yes.

Marcello:
The first African-American student admitted to the college was Tennyson Miller, who came in the summer of 1954, which might be a little bit before your time. Nevertheless, I'll ask the question. Did you know or have any contact with Tennyson Miller?

McLeod:
No, not to my knowledge, and I think that I would have remembered him if I did.

Marcello:
He, of course, had been originally a teacher over at Fred Moore Colored School [Frederick Douglass/Fred Moore Colored School, Denton, Texas], and then he went off to Port Arthur [Texas], I believe, and was an assistant principal. He had come back here to get a doctorate in education because no black college offered a doctorate. I didn't know if you knew him or not.

McLeod:
No, I didn't. I worked on a doctorate here. In fact, I started when I first came back. That was the one of the reasons why I came back. It wasn't for a salary increase. I took about $1,000 a year cut in salary (chuckle). But, anyway, there were a number of black students in the doctoral program then. The first ten years, they granted sixteen degrees -- in ten years. I guess that everyone wanted to be sure that they were tough enough or something. It was ridiculous. Anyway, there were black students in our classes then, and as far as I know, there were no problems at all. If someone had feelings that they did have a problem with desegregation, they didn't show it, though.

Marcello:
At that time, as compared or contrasted to now, how much control did faculty and administrators have over students? Do you understand what I'm saying?

McLeod:
Yes.

Marcello:
At that time, the role of the university was in loco parentis.

McLeod:
(Chuckle) Yes. Well, Dr. [James Carl] Matthews was king (chuckle). I mean, I don't think that there was any question about that, and Dean Bill Woods and Dean [Imogene Bentley] Dickey ran everything. I mean, they ran everything. I do know how Dean Woods used to come up and visit us at the Industrial Arts Building almost daily. He was a gun buff and all that stuff.

[Tape 1, Side 2]

Marcello:
When I turned over the tape, I think that you had been talking about Dean Bill Woods and the other administrators.

McLeod:
Yes. He was a tremendous person in my opinion. He just treated the people fairly. That doesn't mean that he was very well-liked. He was not, for the lack of a better term, as aggressive and forceful as Dean Dickey. She was tough (chuckle).

Marcello:
But the point we're talking about is that faculty and administrators did have greater control over students and could "put the clamps on" [take preventative measures] any possible violent reactions against African Americans.

McLeod:
Well, yes. I think that that's probably true. I wouldn't have tolerated that at all, I don't think. I know Bill Woods, and I don't think that there is a prejudiced bone in his body. He was very supportive.

Dr. Matthews had his thumb on [had control of] everything. He knew what was going on with everything. This is beside the point, but during the years of the "panty raids" and all that, he appointed a committee, and I don't remember who all was on it. [Dr. Robert] Bob Marquis and Jerry McCain and different ones were on that. My assignment was Terrill Hall [reference to a dormitory building that McLeod was patrolling in order to discourage males from harassing the female residents].

In the winter, when it's just cold as blazes...I don't know. I got a call at 11:30 or 12:00 at night or something like that. I went over and parked, which was my assigned spot, in front of Terrill Hall. I had on a topcoat and a hat. I don't ever wear a hat, but, anyway, all of a sudden two police cars came up -- Denton City Police. One pulled in front, and one pulled in behind me. They got out with their weapons drawn and told me (chuckle) to get out of the car. So, I put my hands on the headliner of the car and everything. I said, "I'm not going to get out." They said, "Don't move." I said, "Okay, I'm not." I said, "There's a letter up over my sun visor explaining who I am and why I'm here, if you would be kind enough to reach in and get it."

At about that time, Bob Marquis and Jerry McCain -- Jerry was my officemate -- came up, and they started just giggling and laughing and everything because the police had been over at another dorm, and they had told them that there was some strange guy over here. Of course, they had described my car and everything, and the police came over ready to get me.

Dr. Matthews called us all together. At the time, in the fall semester, the Oklahoma-Texas football game was coming up, and he said that there would be a bunch of guys from Oklahoma coming down. He had the streets blocked off according to how he knew they'd go. It was just exactly that way. He knew what was going on.

Marcello:
Let's talk a little bit more about J. C. Matthews because, obviously, he's going to play a pivotal role in the course of desegregation. Describe Matthews's leadership style.

McLeod:
It was one way -- -his way (chuckle) -- pretty much. I got along with him okay. I didn't have many dealings with him, as far as that goes. As far as I know, he was definitely in control of everything.

Marcello:
And like you mentioned a little while ago, he knew pretty much everything that was going on on this campus.

McLeod:
He knew exactly what was going on. I don't know, but I heard rumors that he had students who would get free tuition and so forth to be in different classes and report back to him and so forth, I guess, for their opinions as to the general feeling of the atmosphere on campus, maybe, and also about the instructors or professors. I don't know if that was true, but I just heard that as a rumor. His intelligence system was pretty good, whatever it was. He knew exactly what was going on.

Marcello:
What do you know about the relationship between J. C. Matthews and the chairman of the Board of Regents at that time, Ben Wooten?

McLeod:
Just through observation and hearing. Apparently, they got along extremely, well, and seemingly got a lot done. There again, I've heard rumors, and that's all, because I don't know. I know that they would talk about what needed to go on in a Board of Regents meetings. Then they'd come in, and it was all "BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!" -- just exactly what they wanted. It was all pretty much cut-and-dried.

Marcello:
That's my opinion, too, that between J. C. Matthews and Ben Wooten, they pretty much had their way with the Board of Regents.

McLeod:
You bet! Right, right. And I feel sure that no one was selected for the Board of Regents that didn't conform (chuckle). There again, that's why I say that in my opinion, as an observer primarily, he was in absolute control of everything.

Marcello:
Now, I do know that North Texas in February of 1956 accepted its first black female student, Mrs. I. E. L. Sephas.

McLeod:
That seems vaguely familiar.

Marcello:
Now, do you recall how Matthews controlled media coverage of that event when it occurred? Now, this happened after the [Joe] Atkins case had gone to court. You remember that Joe Atkins had sued the university for admission, and the federal courts decided against the college in favor of Atkins. Now, Atkins never attended as an undergraduate, because he wanted to go to school, and while the case was working its way through the courts, he had gone to what was then Texas Western College, [now the University of Texas at El Paso, El Paso, Texas]. So, we get Mrs. Sephas in the fall of 1956, and what I am wondering is, do you have any recollection of how Matthews handled the media?

McLeod:
I don't, really. I'll just say that I don't recall anything happening at all. I don't think that anything went on that he didn't have total control of, so I would say that everything had to come through him. I mean, if the media came out, I would think that they would have to get his approval.

Marcello:
My understanding is that, also, after the desegregation order had come down, he did call a convocation of the faculty and then laid down the law to the faculty.

McLeod:
I don't really remember that as such, but I don't doubt it (chuckle).

Marcello:
Now, you also indicated a moment ago that you know a little more perhaps about the desegregation of athletics that occurs in September of 1956, when Leon King and Abner Haynes come. You mentioned that you were a faculty advisor to an athletic fraternity. Was this the "Geezles?"

McLeod:
Yes, yes, right (chuckle).

Marcello:
What were the origins of that name? Do you know?

McLeod:
That's a good question. They were a lot of good kids. What is surprising is that a lot of former members...for a number of years, they were number one academically of all the fraternities -- before they went national and everything -- and there was a big move -- they were pretty well-split on that -- to go national. Some wanted to go national; some didn't. So, they didn't go national and so forth. That's why I say that I think that I had a pretty good handle on it. I would say that 90 or 95 percent of their membership were athletes with one sport or another. I did not hear...I think that those guys were quite verbal, most of them, and they would have said what they felt. The only thing that I recall, comment-wise, was that Abner -- you know what I mean -- you'd reach for him [to try to tackle him in a football game], and he's not there. I mean, they respected him for his athletic ability.

Marcello:
I think that this is interesting in that a lot of the athletes on the football team had been recruited from East Texas. I gather that [the North Texas head football coach] Odus Mitchell had a pipeline between a guy by the name of [Floyd] Wagstaff over in East Texas at Tyler Junior College [Tyler, Texas].

McLeod:
Oh, yes, from Tyler [Texas], Tyler Junior College. Floyd Wagstaff, yes, yes. When I was at the junior college, I coached and I against played Tyler, after we had won the division [championship] in basketball. We played Tyler in the next bracket. They were in another upper -- higher -- bracket of junior colleges, and they beat us good. I won the state in my division, but, boy, they clobbered us. They [North Texas] recruited them all. I'd say that probably 50 percent or more of the athletes, football players especially, who came through East Texas -- Kilgore Junior College [Kilgore, Texas] and Tyler Junior College -- came here.

Marcello:
Also, my understanding is that a significant percentage of the athletes at that time were World War II veterans.

McLeod:
Yes, a lot of them were.

Marcello:
Do you think that that may have perhaps explained why there were no problems on the athletic teams?

McLeod:
I think so, because that [military service] makes a difference. Personally, I didn't have a problem when I was in the service. My very good friend aboard one of the ships I was on was from Laurel, Mississippi. Anyone from north of Mississippi was a "Blue-nosed Yankee" and so forth and so on. But even he accepted the blacks aboard ship and everything. Not at first, he didn't, but as time went on and everything, he got to where he accepted them.

Marcello:
What was his name?

McLeod:
Louis Harvey Riles. He lived at 909 Masonite Drive, Laurel, Mississippi (chuckle). He was a dandy.

Marcello:
I do know that on those football teams, a very, very close friendship developed between Abner Haynes and the quarterback of that team, Vernon Cole.

McLeod:
Oh, yes, yes.

Marcello:
What part do you think that played in the acceptance of Leon and Abner?

McLeod:
Probably a lot. Vernon was in the fraternity that I sponsored. I don't think that there is a soul on earth that didn't like and respect Vernon Cole. He was a crackerjack. He'd been in the Air Force and was a pilot and so forth -- a bomber pilot. He was a great, great young man. That probably helped a lot.

Marcello:
He had a brother on that team, Charlie Cole, who was definitely a veteran.

McLeod:
Yes, yes. Charlie was something in law enforcement here for years and years. I don't remember...a probation officer, I think.

Marcello:
Juvenile probation, I think, he was in.

McLeod:
Yes, right, right. Charlie Cole (chuckle).

Marcello:
Interestingly, one of the individuals on that football team who did not accept Abner and Leon at first was "Mac" Reynolds. Do you remember "Mac" Reynolds?

McLeod:
Oh, yes, very well (chuckle) "Mac" was from Karnack, Texas. I hadn't thought of this in years. Now, that is deep East Texas. "Mac" would be as...yes, as far as I know...and I knew "Mac" real well. I started to say awhile ago that I'm sure the people on the team would know more about it. Maybe I might know more about it than most because I was around these guys a lot, but, as far as I know, "Mac" never said anything in my presence, that I recall. If anyone would be prejudiced, he might be (chuckle).

Marcello:
I seem to hear you say that a respect for athletic ability would perhaps overcome any racial prejudices a person might have, certainly on the athletic field.

McLeod:
Yes, I feel so. I know that when they used to have the "ex's" [reference to the annual North Texas alumni players versus varsity team football] games, where the "ex's" came back and played ... I don't remember all the team members, but Vernon was the quarterback and Ray Renfro and Abner came down. They didn't suit up [for the "ex's" in] the first half, and the score was twenty-seven to nothing at the half in favor of the regular [varsity] team. On the first and second plays from scrimmage of the second half, Vernon threw two passes. I don't remember now who caught them. I think that the first one was to Ray Renfro, and the second was to Abner. The regulars didn't score in the second half. They scored, and they beat the regulars by one point. Jim Brewer -- you may remember Jim Brewer -- played both ways. He played on offense and defense, and you could hear him all over the stadium. I loved those games because I knew most of those people playing. It made a difference.

Marcello:
I also know that in later years, Joe Atkins came back and got a master's at North Texas, which again seems to be perhaps some indication that blacks found a pretty good racial climate on campus.

McLeod:
I think so. I didn't know him. I remember the name, now that you mention it and so forth. I remember hearing the name, but I did not know him personally.

Marcello:
In your time here at North Texas -- back then or even through the years -- did you ever ask any African-American students: "Why did you come to North Texas? Why did you select North Texas?"

McLeod:
Yes. I can't remember, other than I did ask Ulysses Cox. He was interested in industrial arts, and we had one of the best departments in the nation then; and it was close by to where he lived. I guess that he had talked to other people, so, anyway, he felt like this would be a good place to go. Everytime that I've talked to him since then, he's been so complimentary that he was well-received by faculty and students. He never had a problem.

Marcello:
I think that it is interesting, however, that although North Texas did desegregate by court order in the early 1950s, in the beginning Matthews would not allow African-Americans to live on campus.

McLeod:
No, no.

Marcello:
How did you feel about that? Did you even think about it very much?

McLeod:
I didn't even know about that because I wasn't here, other than as a student. Of course, there again, when I came back, they were abiding by the law. I think that Dr. Matthews...I don't know how he felt about it personally, but he was going to go with the law and not get in any trouble. I don't know what all went on behind the scenes, but I feel like he had everything under control.

Marcello:
One last question, Pat, and I think we can end this interview. Obviously, Abner Haynes was a superb athlete, and Leon King was pretty good. But he was not in the same class athletically as Abner.

McLeod:
No, he wasn't, and he'd be the first to admit it.

Marcello:
How important do you feel that successful black athletes were in this relatively smooth transition from a segregated situation to a desegregated one?

McLeod:
I think that it helped. That's my personal opinion, because Abner is still known. Young kids still have heard of Abner Haynes and what all he did and everything. I think that he had a tremendous amount to do with the transition because he was so very good. He was accepted by the players. Even when they were white, black, brown, whatever, when Abner got the ball and ran, why, everyone was rooting for him. They were fully in support of him. So, I think that that helped a lot.

Marcello:
One of the interesting things that happened back during that period when Haynes and King were on the football team was that they had to play the University of Houston [Houston, Texas] at Houston, you know. They could not find an integrated hotel in Houston, and so the university took -- actually chartered -- a Pullman car on a train. Do you remember that?

McLeod:
I vaguely recall that they had some problems. I'm not sure. Of course, Ken [Bahnsen] or Bobby Way, some of those people, would know far more about it. I think that they had maybe some problems elsewhere, oh, like, in restaurants for the guys to eat and everything.

Marcello:
And evidently the coaches had decided early on that they'd do everything as a team, or they'd do nothing as a team.

McLeod:
That's right. Yes, right. I have a sneaking suspicion that Dr. Matthews probably laid down the law: "That's the way it's going to be!" I think he would.

Marcello:
What do you know about Matthews laying down quotas, that is, that the coaches could recruit so many black athletes per year?

McLeod:
I don't know. That would not surprise me, but I don't know for sure. There again, Ken, Bobby Way, and Ira Defoor and some of those people that were here in the athletic department would know. I don't know if you talked to them or not.

Marcello:
I have and evidently there were quotas that the ol' boy [Dr. J. C. Matthews] put down.

McLeod:
I don't doubt that at all. I'm not aware of that as such, but I don't doubt it.

Marcello:
Okay, well, Pat, that exhausts my list of questions. I want to thank you very much for having participated.

McLeod:
Well, good, good. Ron, I've enjoyed it.

Marcello:
I've enjoyed it, too.

Copyright © 1998 The Board of Regents of the University of North Texas in the City of Denton

All rights reserved. No part of this work may be reproduced or transmitted in any form by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying and recording or by any information storage or retrieval system, without permission in writing from the Director of the Oral History Program or the University Archivist, University of North Texas, Denton, Texas 76203.