University of North Texas Oral History Collection

Interview with Jerry Russell
Interviewer: Dr. Ronald E. Marcello, Randy Cummings
Place of Interview: Dallas, Texas.
Date of Interview: January 13, 1983

Dr. Marcello:
This is Ron Marcello with Randy Cummings interviewing Jerry Russell for the North Texas State University Oral History Collection. The interview is taking place on January 13, 1983, in Dallas, Texas. We are interviewing Mr. Russell in order to get his reminiscences and observations concerning the coming of Abner Haynes to North Texas State University and the integration of NT athletics in general,

Mr. Russell, to begin this interview, very briefly give us a biographical sketch of yourself. In other words, tell us when you were born, where you were born, your education -- things of that nature.

Mr. Russell:
I was born on February 7, 1937, in Gorman, Texas -- as opposed to Garland. I grew up, beginning when I was about the sixth grade, in Garland. I went to junior high and high school in Garland.

I started to North Texas in the fall of 1955. I went there on an athletic scholarship and graduated in 1959.

After graduation, I worked for a couple of years for an insurance company in Fort Worth. Then I transferred to the Dallas office, so I could start to the night division of the SMU Law School. I went to the night division over there for about four years and took the bar exam with...you could take the bar exam with seventy-two hours, and I think I had seventy-six hours. I took it and started practicing law, but I continued to go to the night division of law school until I got my degree. Ninety hours were required for that. I've been practicing since, I believe, 1967 in the Garland-Dallas area.

I spent one session in the legislature. It must have been, like, 1971 and 1972 -- approximately ten years ago. I am married and got two girls. What else would you like to know?

Marcello:
Well, I think that's sufficient. Let's back up just a moment. You mentioned that you were born in Gorman? Where is Gorman located?

Russell:
Gorman's not close to anything significant. I'm not sure...I'm not even sure...I think it's in Erath County. It's in an area that is near the little town of Dublin. It's near Comanche. I don't know that it's all that near Stephenville, but it's in that sort of west-central part of the state. It may be 130-140 miles from here.

Marcello:
And I assume it is, or was, a very rural area.

Russell:
Yes. We didn't live there at the time. I think we went through maybe. It had a large clinic there, almost like a hospital. It was probably the only hospital for many, many miles around, so people who were passing through, or who were near the area, just had a tendency to go there to have their kids or check themselves in the hospital for whatever reason (chuckle). So the fact that I was born there was just incidental to that fact.

Marcello:
And you stayed there how long?

Russell:
In Gorman? We didn't stay there. My father was an equipment operator in the construction industry, and when I was a young child, and immediately before I was born, my family started moving around whenever work was available in the construction business, or picking cotton, or whatever way you could make a living might turn up. So, finally, when I was about maybe five or six, we settled on a farm out in West-Central Texas for a short time. My dad died when I was in about the end of my fifth year in school...the fifth grade. Then my mother moved us into the little town of Comanche, Texas. She worked in a restaurant there until she remarried. Then about 1948 or 1949, we moved to Garland.

Marcello:
During this period when you were growing up, let's say during your school years, how much contact did you have at that time with blacks?

Russell:
Practically none. I guess this is sort of an interesting thing since we're talking about integration -- that's one of the purposes of the interview -- but there were no blacks in Comanche County. I guess, at least at that time, the residents were very proud of the fact that that was an all-white county and that blacks were not even supposed to do anything but pass through, and in a pretty quick fashion at that. So I probably...until we moved to Garland, I don't remember seeing but one black person, and that was the shoeshine man at a barber shop in the town of Dublin. Now I don't know how old he was, but he was an older person.

Marcello:
Would there have actually been that many blacks living in or around Garland?

Russell:
No, not many. Garland's always had, and even today has, a small black community. This is a much larger percentage than it was in those days, but when I first moved to Garland, there was only 8,000 people, whereas today it's probably close to 200,000. So it probably wouldn't have been a hundred blacks in Garland at that tine.

Marcello:
And I assume that you went to segregated schools at that time?

Russell:
Yes.

Marcello:
What attitude do you recall m and pour family having toward blacks at that time?

Russell:
Well, as for myself, I think I had no attitude at all because I had very little exposure to blacks. I was aware in a sort of detached way of discrimination and the problems maybe blacks might have being black, but it was such a remote thing, as far as I was concerned, that I had very little occasion to form any opinions or to give much thought to the question of integration. Even in 1955, there really wasn't any sort of a real integration movement.

Marcello:
Brown vs. Board of Education hadn't reached Garland yet?

Russell:
That's right. But it was very apparent to me that the adult persons that I would come into contact with didn't have high regard for blacks and didn't think much of the idea of integration.

Marcello:
We use the term "black" today. At that time, when referring to blacks, what were the terms that you perhaps heard used more than any other?

Russell:
Well, I guess "n*****" is probably the most common term, and probably about the only term that you would hear in those days. Nobody said "Negro." They said "n*****." But I guess part of that comes not from necessarily an intentional slur, but at least from partially the fact that that was just the vernacular.

Marcello:
When did you first become interested in football? When did you start playing on an organized basis?

Russell:
Oh, when we moved to...oh, gosh, I guess I can remember playing football in the playgrounds when I was back in Comanche in the fourth or fifth grade -- in the playgrounds when I was back in Comanche in the fourth or fifth grade -- if you can call that organized. That really wasn't organized because I don't really recall we having teachers or anybody out supervising the games. I guess junior high school was the first year that I was involved in any organized football. I was always kind of tall and skinny and not able to make the teams very readily.

We had a fellow by the name of Pete Peters, who was a teacher in junior high school at the time and who later became principal of the high school, but at that time he was a teacher at the junior high. He managed to gather up some old worn-out, discarded uniforms and rounded up all of us. In fact, they called us the "Rag-nots," all the guys who wanted to play that couldn't play. He got us into uniform and found us some games. We had four or five or six games that year, and I guess that was really the first year that I played organized football. I don't remember what grade I was in...I don't recall...I don't recall playing on any regular junior high team. I think I must have been just a "Rag-not" until...and when I was a sophomore, I was on the "B" team. Then I played when I was a junior and senior. I didn't play a great deal when I was a junior.

Marcello:
What position did you play?

Russell:
I was an end.

Marcello:
How much weight were you packing at that time?

Russell:
Well, I think when I graduated from high school...well, I had a tendency to always overestimate how heavy I was, and so even today I probably can't truthfully recall how heavy I was (chuckle). I probably weighed 166-167 pounds, and I was probably six foot tall. So I was kind of skinny.

Cummings:
Were you interested in all in sports?

Russell:
Yes, I played basketball, and my senior year I came out for track because we had a football coach who told me I should come out. He was one of those guys you don't turn down, so (laughter) I went out and did the broad jump and some other things. It turned out that I won district in broad jump.

Marcello:
I assume that during your career in high school athletics, you never played against any blacks, let alone have any blacks on your team.

Russell:
That's correct. That's correct.

Marcello:
So, again, you basically grew up, without putting words in your mouth, in a society where there were superiors and inferiors, so to speak.

Russell:
Well, I think that's probably a little too simplistic, and I'm not exactly sure what you're suggesting by that.

Marcello:
There was a dominant race?

Russell:
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Your question is, I suppose, was the attitude such that whites were dominant over blacks. I think the answer is yes, but I don't think it had only to do with blacks. I think most of the adults that I had any association with had the same feeling for other races. It didn't make any difference if you were talking about Mexicans or Chinese or Italians or who they were; I mean, if you weren't White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, well, you weren't on the same footing or level as others.

Marcello:
Describe the process by which you got to North Texas.

Russell:
Well, I had a pretty good year when I was a senior and had some interest from some various colleges in having me come play on athletic scholarship.

Cummings:
Who all had shown an interest in you?

Russell:
Various junior colleges -- Tyler, Kilgore...I don't know...some others perhaps...the University of Arkansas. I went there to visit. Texas A & M suggested that I should come and go to Allen Academy, and if I put on some weight, they'd bring me over to A & M. I didn't think that too good a deal. I really don't recall. There were a couple of others that contacted me.

I come from family that doesn't have very many high school graduates, much less college graduates. There wasn't any real guidance. You know, I really didn't know what college was all about except that that's the place where you go to get more education and stay out of the Army, and you can keep playing football. Because my family was not really sophisticated, I didn't know what was needed to do about trying to select a college or what you needed to do about pursuing the opportunities. So I just sort of "floated along," waiting for somebody to come and snatch me up, and nobody just, you know, came up and got me by the scruff of the neck and took me up and enrolled me.

So Pete Peters, who was my old teacher and later principal, must have arranged for a meeting at North Texas with Coach Mitchell. He got me in his car and took me to Denton. Mr. Peters arranged the scholarship. Somebody told me I had the scholarship, so I reported to North Texas the next fall (laughter).

Marcello:
What were your impressions of Coach Mitchell in that initial meeting?

Russell:
Oh, I can't say that I was extremely impressed, but most any mature adult impressed me. I was brought up to have a lot of respect for people older than you are, and I was not sophisticated enough to make any real judgments of the man. He was not a particularly charismatic person, and never has been. He's pretty low-key, so I don't think that I had any particularly strong impression either way. I was just happy that somebody was interested in me and that would give me an opportunity to go to college to play football. I was interested in that, too. Not that it was anything that I thought of as being dominant in my life, but it was something I enjoyed doing -- the association with it and so forth.

Marcello:
So, actually, it was Mr. Peters who perhaps more than anybody else guided you in that direction?

Russell:
Yes, absolutely,

Cummings:
Going back to that senior year, it sounds as if you didn't ever realize that you could use your football talents as a means of obtaining more education, of obtaining success, in any certain way.

Russell:
No, I don't. I look back, and I wonder just how smart I was (chuckle), because I can't recall even having been aware that those people that I heard about playing college football, and listening to on the radio, were down there on scholarships. I don't think it even came to my attention until sometime late in my senior year that that was a way you could go to college. So I sort of went along mostly unaware that there were any opportunities other than just for whatever fun you were having at the time.

Cummings:
Were you even planning on going to college before Mr. Peters came up and suggested that you go to North Texas and go out for football?

Russell:
Oh, I had finally decided something along during my senior year that that was the thing that I ought to give some strong consideration to and that I ought to try to find a way to do it. But, again, my family was not...well, they didn't discourage me. It was just not something that seemed particularly important. The tradition had sort of been that you go out and get yourself a good job and stick with it, and if you don't, you're worthless. So you know, it's a strong work ethic. You go out and get a good job and work hard. It was the thing that was important. The college thing was not something that was looked upon as being particularly desirable. Maybe they had a different attitude about it than that, but it was not made evident to me. Nobody ever said, "Hey, son, why don't you go to college?" You know, you didn't think about what you were going to do. We just sort of assumed that, well, you could go into the Army, or you would get a job.

Cummings:
Well, after you had that initial meeting with Coach Mitchell and you get that scholarship, did it strike you then that you were going to get to go to college and that you were going to get to play football, a game that you liked, and you know, get a better education or further your education? Did that all hit you at once?

Russell:
Yes. Well, of course, W. R. Allen, who is one of my partners in the law firm, was a good friend of mine in high school. He's a year older than me. W. R. had a good deal of influence on me, I guess, because he was always one step ahead, and I could see what he was doing. I talked to him about what he was doing and what he thought of it. So I probably formed some of my ideas and made a lot of decisions based upon the things I would learn from him. He had gone out to Texas Tech the year I was in high school. He would come back into town from time to time, and he and I would get together and talk about what he was doing.

Cummings:
Was he an athlete?

Russell:
Yes, W. R. was a good athlete. He had a neck injury when he was a junior and didn't play any football when he was a senior, so he didn't get any athletic scholarship; but he went up to Tech and tried out up there and got a scholarship. He didn't like Tech too much, so he transferred back to North Texas and got a scholarship there. He and I later were roommates at North Texas. So W. R. knows Abner, too.

Cummings:
Well, it sounds like that during this transition period from high school to college, athletics and football really was not that big of a part of your life as far as forming your opinions on what you wanted to do and how you wanted to do it and how you wanted to get there.

Russell:
No, it was just a part of the social scene more than anything.

Cummings:
I asked that because for a lot of kids today, football is it, and if you can get them to college, great, you know. If you can get them money, great, so forth and so on.

Russell:
Well, of course, kids today are a lot more sophistocated than kids were when I came up in the early fifties. We were all a pretty simple lot (laughter). I think the kids today have an opportunity to be exposed to the information, and they know at an earlier age what opportunities are out there. You know, I knew there were professional football players and that they made money, but it never occurred to me that anybody really ought to set out to be a professional football player.

Marcello:
Well, then, of course, at that time the big bucks weren't there like they are today, either.

Russell:
Yes, you didn't hear about the dollars. The fact that somebody was a player, fine. But nobody ever said how much money they made.

Marcello:
In fact, it wasn't even the dominant game then. It was still basically baseball.

Russell:
I think probably yes, as far as professional level is concerned, but as far as fan interest is concerned...of course, baseball in this area has never been a particularly popular sport, except for the sandlots.

Cummings:
Going back again to your days in high school, you said that you competed against all-white teams. Did you and maybe your buddies ever have any interest in going to watch black games? I know that in the Dallas area there were black high schools playing games.

Russell:
No.

Cummings:
Do you recall having any interest in watching how they played the game?

Russell:
No, I don't think I even had any occasion to wonder about it. I don't think I ever had any occasion to wonder if they played football.

Cummings:
It's almost like they weren't even in existence?

Russell:
To a certain degree. I mean, you know, kids are the most selfish people in the world, I guess. About the only thing that they think of is food and entertainment. It's all a "me"-oriented thing. You don't really give a whole lot of thought to what's going on in the world around you, or at least I didn't. Maybe I was more selfish than the ordinary kid, but my life was pretty simple. You know, I was only interested in getting out and playing games and having fun and dating the girls and that sort of thing. I was interested in school, but as far as politics or any interest which was outside of this kid's world, it just didn't penetrate. I got a little by osmosis, maybe (laughter), but it was very little.

Cummings:
Well, when you got to North Texas then -- you said it was the fall of 1955 -- they were still predominantly white, weren't they?

Russell:
Maybe I thought more about those things than I remember now. Maybe I just have any recollection of it. I may have been more aware than I'm saying now simply because I can't remember being aware. No, again, I had very little exposure to blacks. At that time Garland...of course, Garland now is just a part of Dallas. The two have grown together, but then you're talking about a fifteen-mile drive to downtown Dallas from the population center of Garland. A lot of the people from Garland did their shopping over on East Grand. I guess it was sort of northeast of town, and you're still talking ten or twelve miles, which at that time, you know, you'd go through a lot of undeveloped areas. It was kind of a pretty good little drive to get there. So you didn't go into Dallas all the time. You spent most of your time right here in Garland, and there weren't many blacks in Garland, and practically no Mexicans or person of other race or descent. We're talking White Anglo-Saxon Protestants for the most part. A Catholic was sort of a curiosity (laughter).

Cummings:
Well, when you got to North Texas then, they were still an all-white athletic department, weren't they?

Russell:
Right. And I didn't find out about it until later. Again, I didn't really direct my attention to those ways, I suppose, at that time because I was unaware of some of the things that were going on and some of the ways that integration was affecting what we did in the athletic program or what we did in school. When I went up there as a freshman, we didn't have a freshman team. You just played varsity, and so the first year I was there, we went to Mississippi State, Mississippi Southern, and Ole Miss. We played three Mississippi teams. After Abner came, we didn't play anymore Mississippi games! I didn't wonder why we didn't play anymore Mississippi teams. It didn't occur to me. I didn't worry about who was on the schedule next year or why the team from the year before wasn't on the schedule this year. As far as I was concerned, that was up to the athletic department to schedule football games. You know, it just wasn't something that I spent any time wondering about. Finally, you know, it came to my attention that the reason we didn't play Ole Miss or Mississippi State is that they wouldn't play us.

Cummings:
How did you find that out? Did the coaches tell you?

Russell:
No, the coaches didn't tell me. Some other player told me. You know, I don't know how he found it out, but I got the information in some sort of a thirdhanded kind of way. For some reason or other, I was sort of surprised! I was mildly surprised about it. The more I thought about it, the more I understood, because everybody was aware by that time that the people in Mississippi were a good deal more prejudiced than they are here. At least that was the impression that I had. So it became less surprising after I thought about it. Now I'm surprised at my own lack of awareness. Maybe I was surprised that I was so naive not to know.

Marcello:
At the same time, are we safe in assuming that North Texas did not play any teams that had any blacks your first year? Do you recall playing any team that had blacks? Obviously, the three Mississippi schools didn't.

Russell:
No, they didn't (chuckle). Let's see...I'm trying to remember who else we played. I really can't remember, but I feel fairly confident in saying that there were no blacks on the teams that w played.

Cummings:
I would think that if you did play a team with blacks, since you had grown up totally, you know, unknowledgeable of blacks, that that first time would have made an impression on you.

Russell:
Yes, probably so.

Cummings:
If you can't remember, I wouldn't think you had played against any.

Marcello:
I guess this probably brings us up to the point where we can talk about the coming of Abner Haynes. Think back, if you will, and try to remember how you heard the news and what your reaction was when you found out that blacks would be joining the North Texas team.

Russell:
I'm certain that I didn't know until I got to...the boys got to school about a week before the school session started, and we'd be there, like, a week or two weeks before school for workouts. I'm sure that I didn't know it until I got to school. Abner and Leon, who were the first, did not live in the dormitory. They did not eat in the cafeteria. I remember that Abner, when he was a freshman, while he was not tall, was pretty stocky; I mean, he probably weighed 185 pounds or so, and when he was a sophomore, he was like a stick. That guy didn't weigh 165-170 pounds.

Marcello: That's interesting. That kind of puts some things in perspective that we've learned in other interviews. When we talked to Coach Mitchell, you get the impression that here was a little scrawny, shifty running back. Yesterday, when we talked to Jerrell Shaw, he recalled Abner as being a solid 185-190 pounder. You mentioned the same thing, but then you seemed to indicate that it appeared that he perhaps slimmed down.

Russell:
Well, after he became a part of the team, for whatever your attitude may have been before, as for myself, Abner was a very personable guy. He was very easy to like. So I became aware of the fact that he was not being treated like the rest of us. I didn't know why he was not living in the dorm. Initially, I didn't really even wonder about it that much because there were athletes that didn't live in the dorm. You know, if you could get the coach to agree for you to live outside the dorm, well, fine, and some of them did. Not all of them. But it was pretty apparent to me that this dorm situation itself had to do with the lack of integration, and it didn't take long to figure that out. But in the course of wondering about those things, it somehow came to my attention that the second year, the reason that Abner was a lot skinnier than he was in the first was that he had no place on the campus to eat. If he came to the campus, he couldn't eat at the athletic training table with the rest of us, and he had no place on the campus to eat, at all, I presume. That sort of incensed me, anyway. That was the point I finally reached. You know, initially, everybody said, "Well, ol' Abner is staying out all night. He's running with the girls and partying. He's getting all skinny and poor because he's not taking care of himself." That was not the reason. I mean, he may have been doing that, but that wasn't the reason he got skinny.

Marcello:
That's an interesting observation. It's something that we should keep in mind when we talk to him.

Cummings:
Yes, you're the first one to ever bring up that idea.

Marcello:
We've also been told that prior to Abner's coming, there was a team meeting which was addressed basically by Coach Mitchell, and...well, I'm not going to put any words in your mouth, but do you remember that meeting?

Russell:
No, I don't. No, I don't remember a meeting. Tell me what you know, and see if you can refresh my memory.

Marcello:
The story we basically got was that the team meeting was held, and Coach Mitchell rather matter-of-factly said that two blacks were coming and that he didn't want any trouble. Basically, that was it.

Russell:
It might have taken place, but I don't remember it.

Cummings:
You don't recall how you first learned that two blacks would be joining the football team?

Russell:
No, I don't, because as far as I personally was concerned, it was not a great event. Maybe it should have been, because they were, I guess, now that I look back, sort of pioneers, you know, but it didn't strike me at that time as any kind of a really significant event. I just figured, "Heck, if they're good enough to play, then that's okay."

Marcello:
Recall, if you will, the first time you ever laid eyes on Abner and Leon -- one or both.

Russell:
Well, I can't recall that, but I'm sure that it had to be down at the practice field because they didn't live at the dorm, and I'm sure that the first time I saw them was down at the lockers or the practice field.

Cummings:
You don't remember stopping and just kind of staring or something.

Russell:
Oh, I'm sure that I just didn't saunter casually by, you know, and didn't notice something going on. I'm sure that I looked them over pretty good, but I don't recall any particular feelings. I'm sure there was a fairly large degree of curiosity about them being there.

Marcello:
You were an end, and I assume that you were still an end when you came to North Texas. Leon was an end, also.

Russell:
Yes. I was a halfback one season when I was a sophomore or junior, I think.

Marcello:
Would you have had perhaps a closer relationship with Leon than with Abner?

Russell:
No, Leon would have been the competition. He wouldn't have been any friend of mine (laughter).

Marcello:
That's the story we got yesterday when we talked to Jerrell. He was a back. You know, he was eyeballing Abner the whole time.

Cummings:
He said the first time he saw Abner, he looked straight through the color of his skin and looked at his size and weight and if he had the talent, what kind of a running back he was. That's what he was worried about Abner.

Russell:
That's kind of the way I looked at Leon. You know, I looked at his skinny legs, his size, and his speed -- just kind of sizing him up as far as his ability to get the job I was looking for. You know, I couldn't ignore the fact that he was black, but I didn't regard him or any other end any different for that matter.

Marcello:
What reactions or remarks did you observe on the part of your other teammates?

Russell:
I think that at that time, we probably still had a few of the older fellows. When I was a freshman, we had a large contingent of older players -- guys who had been in the Navy for four years and had gone to Tyler Junior College and played three years and had been at North Texas for three or four years. These guys were twenty-six or twenty-seven years old -- a lot of them (chuckle). Being that age, they were a little more opinionated than maybe some of the younger ones. Probably any remarks or any sort of hostile words probably would have been from some of those fellows. I can't recall any names or faces, but I can recall there being some remarks made. The nature of them, I don't remember, but I'm sure the whole idea was that maybe they were going to get tested out there on the field a little bit.

Marcello:
And did you observe situations where they did get tested?

Russell:
Not that much, no. That was more talk than it was action. I think that we did play some teams that first year that they played...of course, we had a freshman team.

Cummings:
They played freshman ball.

Russell:
They played freshman ball. By golly, I was trying to remember...well, what I was trying to remember, I can't. But I can remember that there were some teams we played that I felt were trying to add a little extra punishment. I think, generally, the players on our team felt a little bit protective about it, too. They didn't like that, you know, once they sort of became part of the group. Initially, when they got out there, they might have had it a little tougher than the ordinary player would, but it wasn't, in my remembrance, anything significant or excessive.

Marcello:
In your mind...

Russell:
I'm sure that it was a lot tougher on them because they had to deal with the psychological aspects of it, whereas I was unaware of the extent of that.

Marcello:
In your mind, what was the key to their becoming a part of the group, so to speak? Just the fact that Abner was a pretty fair football player?

Russell:
Well of course, that helped. Of course, if he had been a very poor player or didn't display the proper amount of bravado, he probably would not have been very eagerly accepted. But then maybe another white player wouldn't have, either. I think that nobody made any conscious decisions about what was acceptable and what wasn't. In looking back, I'm sure that it was just like any new kid on the block coming in. It takes time to become part of the gang...part of the bunch. You're not going to be accepted until you share some of the same knocks or some of the same things on the field that you can talk about and use to form some kind of a relationship -- things that you talk about that become common to you.

Marcello:
Describe what kind of personality Abner had. We might talk a little about Leon, too, because we can't forget that Leon was one of the first blacks.

Russell:
Leon was a lot more serious of the two and was not nearly...Leon, although he didn't exhibit it very readily, and I guess he couldn't afford to under the circumstances...it seemed to me that he was a good deal more sensitive, or at least he was probably affected by the adversity of the situation more than Abner. He was not as good an athlete as Abner. Abner handled himself much better than Leon.

Marcello:
Can you be more specific about that?

Russell:
Well, it was easier for him to brush off any kind of little innuendos or situations that had racial overtones. It was a lot easier for him to brush them off and to go on about his business than it was for Leon. You could see in Leon's face that it affected him more. As I say, I think Leon was a lot more serious person, and Abner had more of a tendency to just smile and joke around than Leon did, which was certainly helpful in the situation.

Marcello:
When Abner and Leon did play varsity ball -- and I assume you were in games at the same time as they -- could you hear racial remarks being hurled back and forth across the line?

Russell:
Well, that was not something that happened frequently in my remembrance, but it was something that happened from time to time.

Marcello:
From time to time, were these racial remarks directed at some of the white players, that is, in terms of their playing with blacks?

Russell:
No, I don't think so. No remarks like that were directed toward me, anyway.

Cummings:
I'd like to go back to your sophomore year, when Abner and Leon came to North Texas. I know that the freshman team worked out almost separately from the varsity team. Could you recall that first workout when they walked out together? Any kind of reactions?

Russell:
No, I really don't. I'm sure everybody was watching to see how they would do. I'm sure that was true, but I don't remember any reactions. I really don't. As I said, I didn't regard it as any kind of great event. I was aware that blacks were not offered the opportunity to play in any of the major colleges or universities in the state, and I was aware that we must have been probably the first larger college that was integrating. I think that must have thought that was okay, and I just didn't think of it as that significant. Like I say, I'm sure it was a really big deal. It really was significant.

Cummings:
Do you recall your teammates' reactions while maybe standing out there waiting for practice to begin and here they come out of the dressing room? Do you remember?

Russell:
It wasn't any deal where everybody gathered around just to see these black guys coming. You know, as I say, you were just aware that they were there, and you had a curiosity about how they would do and how they would fit in. You watched them and were no more acutely aware of them than you would if some of them would have been white players. But there was no collective standing around or confabs about it that I can recall. Maybe there were, and I was just not a part of them. I don't believe there were any kind of circumstances where there was any kind of collective flap about it.

Cummings:
During those early workouts, did you guys on the varsity work out separately from that freshman bunch that included Abner and Leon?

Russell:
Yes, I feel like we did. I think probably what would happen...but I can't really remember specifically...probably, we'd all do calisthenics together; just the initial warming up would be done together. Then probably the freshman go off over there with Ken Bahnsen, who was the freshman coach, and they'd do a lot of their own drills over there separately from us.

Marcello:
Describe the first time you knew that Abner was something special on the football field.

Russell:
Well, I don't think that really became apparent until a few workouts, you know, until after he'd done his thing for a while. Abner didn't just step on the field and impress you as some kind of a super athlete. You knew that he had to be a pretty decent athlete or he wouldn't be there, but he was not any kind of an imposing figure. Neither he nor Leon were, for that matter. Abner's ability was in his quickness and his reactions, and his athletic ability was not apparent just from looking at him, although he was certainly, you know, a good physical specimen. But he was not remarkable. So I think just the fact that the guy...you know, when you tried to tackle him, he wasn't too easy to tackle. He was a lot tougher than he looked. When you hit him, it hurt a little more than you expected it was going to because he didn't seem quite that physical, just looking at him. But he was a lot tougher and a lot more physical player than he appeared to be.

Cummings:
What were his physical football attributes that evolved to make him the good player he was...the great player?

Russell:
You know, he had speed, but it was not just any kind of blazing speed. But for that day and time, he had pretty doggone good speed. We didn't throw the ball a lot, so it was mainly just as his...he ran with a lot of abandon, but it was mostly that he just had a lot of moves and a lot of ability to stay on his feet that other backs didn't have. He could escape and elude tackles better than your ordinary player, which he showed for a long time.

Cummings:
Do you recall during those first few workouts...this may be hard, since the freshman team was separated after calisthenics with the varsity. Do you recall how long during that first fall that it took that group of freshmen to accept him as an equal part of that team?

Russell:
Well, you know, of course, there was a lot of respect. See, he never was an equal part of the team because he wasn't treated equally by the school. You know, the school said, "We're going to let you guys come play football and integrate our program." But it wasn't an integrated program because all they did was attend classes and play football. They didn't participate in campus life in the same way that white students did. They didn't get invited to the fraternity parties, and they didn't hang around the Union Building. They didn't eat in the school cafeteria or stay in the dorms. So they were not ever equal. There were a lot of things that held them apart from the group -- such as that. But insofar as their ability to fit into the team and to have the respect of their teammates and so forth, I don't think it took a very long time because most of those guys...that group of freshmen who came up didn't include any older players. They were all young guys, and I think they would have accepted the situation more easily. When I came, well, there were only like five or six of us on scholarship that year. The year before, they "red-shirted" the entire freshman team, so they didn't really need any freshmen when I came. There was me and Edgar Gray and Jerrell Shaw and a guy named Richard Simons, who died here a year or two ago...I don't know...maybe another guy. There was just a handful of us.

Marcello:
You were talking about the other members of Abner's and Leon's freshman team. A name that keeps cropping up in the interviews that we've done is that of Vernon Cole. What kind of person was Vernon Cole, as you recall him?

Russell:
Vernon Cole was Charlie Cole's little brother (chuckle). That was sort of the way you started out, I suppose. The contrast was interesting because Charlie was one of our older guys. He had been in the service. He was a big, burly kind of guy. Vernon, while he was a pretty stout-looking fellow, was a quarterback, and he was built a hell of a lot different from Charlie (chuckle). He didn't strike me as being a particularly gifted quarterback, but Vernon had a lot of good athletic qualities besides just being a sort of a naturally gifted athlete. He was strong, and he was pretty determined kind of guy. He made up for what he lacked in natural ability with other things. He was a very likeable guy.

Marcello:
The story we get is that he was one of the first on that freshman team to really befriend Abner in particular. The consensus seems to be that because Vernon Cole said, or thought, that these blacks were okay, then they were okay, period. In other words, he had that kind of influence on that freshman team.

Russell:
He could have. He could have, although I think maybe Frank Klein...he was an end from Seguin. I think Frank was probably enough of an individualist that he probably wouldn't have been really strongly influenced by anybody, and I think there are some other fellows in the group who could not be readily led. But I'm sure that Vernon did have a good deal of influence. Vernon sort of had some strong qualities. I think that the quarterback is sort of a natural leader on any football team, if he has got some character strengths, I guess you would say. He could have become the natural leader. That could have very well been the case.

Cummings:
By your junior season, when Abner was a sophomore and joined the varsity group, what kind of acceptance did he receive at the beginning of that year?

Russell:
Oh, I think that most of the fellows looked forward to having him come back, and for more than one reason. You know, he was important to the team, and I think everybody was aware that he could help the team a lot. I don't know if anybody ever sat around and talked about that fact, but it was certainly obvious to anyone that that was the case. So I'm sure that, at least for my own part, I appreciated his presence for that reason. Since we didn't play the same position, he wasn't any threat, although, like I say, I did play halfback when I was a sophomore, but I didn't regard myself as a halfback. We just had some people hurt, so I got pressed into service. I think that he was welcomed on the team, and accepted, because of his personality as well, of course. He was very well-liked -- much, much more well-liked than Leon. I think Leon was not especially well-liked.

Cummings:
It seems like almost everyone we've talked to says that Abner's personality, almost as much as his football talent, helped make this whole transition period as smooth as it turned out to be.

Russell:
Sure, I don't think there's any doubt about it. I think that the integration of the program would not have looked as good or gone as smoothly without somebody who had as good a temperament and as good a personality as Abner. He was very good for that role.

Marcello:
How did the accommodations on road trips change as a result of Abner's and Leon's presence on the team? In other words, we've heard the story that...

Russell:
We didn't go to Mississippi anymore, so that took care of that (laughter).

Marcello:
We've also heard the story that on a trip to Cincinnati, for example, before the two blacks came, that the hotel accommodations were pretty "uptown." But then when the next trip to Cincinnati was made, and when Abner and Leon were on the team, the hotel accommodations weren't quite so good. Did you perhaps notice anything like that occurring?

Russell:
No, I guess that was another part of my lack of sophistication or awareness of certain things because I suppose I had a tendency not to question the quality of the accommodations particularly or to compare one with another. You know, you went and you checked yourself in the room and then found someplace else to go as soon as you could (chuckle) because you didn't want to stay in there. That sort of thing was not apparent to me.

Marcello:
Do you recall any racial incidents occurring on any of these road trips, or had all these things more or less been smoothed out beforehand by the coaches or whoever arranged the trips and so on?

Russell:
I'm sure that they must have been...if there was any advance smoothing out to be done, it must have been done because I don't remember any. You have to understand that your routine is so tightly controlled, and your schedule is such that you don't have a lot of time for anything like that to occur. You get on the airplane together, then you get off the airplane, and you go straight to a bus together. You go straight from the bus to the field or to the hotel or wherever you were going. You moved in some kind of little herd (chuckle) everyplace you sent, and all the things you did were all planned and timed out, so there wasn't much of an opportunity, it seems to me, for racial problems to come about in our travels.

Marcello:
Do you recall any entertaining that Leon and Abner would do on the road trips? I understand that they would sometimes get on the PA system or whatever you want to call it in the plane and sing and cut up.

Russell:
Yes, I remember that now. I would not have recalled that without the suggestion, but I can recall that happening.

Cummings:
Was it pretty good?

Russell:
Yes. I mean, they were better than most of the white guys who couldn't carry a tune. You know, they had a little more ability in that area. You know, in thinking back, I can kind of remember that, while they didn't have to have a lot of encouragement to do it, usually somebody would try to get them to do it.

Cummings:
Do you recall any problems in restaurants on these road trips?

Russell:
No, I really don't. Thinking back, I think the coaches must have anticipated a lot of those things in advance. If we were ever denied service or asked not to go there, I didn't know about it. But I think that we probably...also, thinking back, I think we probably just didn't have as many overnight trips afterwards as we did before. We used to make a lot of long trips. We played out in Arizona...we took a train out there one time...played out in Arizona. We played Mississippi, Cincinnati...we just traveled around a lot that first year or two. Afterwards, it didn't seem like we did as much of this. Part of that may have been because we were making a transition, too, into the Missouri Valley Conference, which created a new schedule for us. But it seemed to me like we tended to...and this was not something that I was aware of, but thinking back, it seems to me we tended to fly to wherever we were going, get in a bus, stay and play, and go back and get on the airplane and come home. I remember getting back to Dallas -- old Love Field -- in the middle of the night a lot of times, so we must have been staying in hotels a lot.

Cummings:
Do you recall a trip to Houston on a train for a game?

Russell:
I think that was when I was a senior, and I had injured my knee the first game for that season and didn't play anymore the rest of the season. I didn't make that trip. That would have been when Abner was a junior probably, and I was a senior.

Cummings:
This is when you were back as a receiver?

Russell:
Yes. One of my teammates was a fellow by the name of George Herring, who was killed in an automobile accident out here between Richardson and Garland a few years ago, and we played side-by-side when you wind up on kickoffs. George tried to block somebody on the kick-off of the first game and hit me instead of the guy he was aiming at and tore up my knee (chuckle). That was the season for me -- one play (laughter).

Cummings:
So, really, your junior season was the most extensive contact you had with Abner as a teammate.

Russell:
Right.

Cummings:
And that junior year you were back as a receiver...

Russell:
Right.

Cummings:
...and he was a running back?

Russell:
Yes, that is my recollection.

Marcello:
Do you recall the time when the house where Abner and Leon was staying burned down?

Russell:
I remember hearing about that. They lost most, if not all, of their possessions. Now that you mention that, I recall that both Abner and Leon seemed to be really well-dressed prior to that. I think they lost a lot of fairly valuable clothing in that. I remember hearing about it, but it was sometime after it had occurred.

Cummings:
That junior year, when you played with Abner and Leon most extensively, since Leon was a receiver, recall what you can about your position meetings or competing with Abner or talking about your position with him, if you did at all.

Russell:
I don't think I ever did. Most of my conversations with Abner were just not about any person or any particular thing. I don't think we ever talked about anything like that.

Cummings:
Even with Leon, since he was a receiver, also?

Russell:
No.

Marcello:
Of course, sometime during the period, Leon dropped out of school for a while, and you perhaps might not have had too much contact with Leon.

Russell:
Yes, and I can't remember when he dropped out. It seems like he dropped out his sophomore year.

Cummings:
Yes, I think he did. He missed his junior year.

Russell:
I remember seeing Leon on a couple of occasions a few years afterwards, and he still had not finished school. I don't know when Leon went back and finished school, but it must have been several years after he dropped out that he finally got a degree. I remember one time seeing that he was...I can't remember what he was doing, but it was something like a security guard job or, you know, some sort of thing like that. It must have been a part-time job for him. Obviously, he had still not gotten any kind of teaching position.

Cummings:
When Abner and Leon were moved up to the varsity, I believe at that time there were two or three new black players who were also incoming freshmen that year. Do you recall them?

Russell:
I don't remember the names except for one guy, and I think his name was Billy Christle or something like that. Billy was a little, short guy. He was just wound up like a clock, and he was really quick and a tough little guy. He was a good player. I don't recall that he stayed in school. Then we had another guy who was a running back, and he was a big son-of-a-gun, and his name was Arthur...Arthur Perkins. He really had, to my way of thinking, a lot of potential. I thought he had all the physical characteristics and abilities to really be a top-drawer fullback. He was substantially bigger than Abner or Billy. I think he had g pretty decent career. I don't think he ever became what some of us thought he really could, but he was a good athlete.

Cummings:
Along about the same time, do you recall any feelings either within yourself or your teammates of thinking, "Oh, my gosh, here's two more coming out for our team! Are we just opening the door, letting these blacks come in?" Was there any fear that, "By gosh, this team's going to be overrun with black athletes."

Russell:
I don't recall that being a concern. There just weren't enough of them. I don't think that feeling ever arised. Maybe somebody who thought they were a little more threatened by them might have felt that way. But I was not a person threatened by them because they were not playing my position, except for Leon, and I always regarded myself as a better player than Leon and not entirely threatened by him. The coaches may have thought differently, and I had my feelings about that (chuckle). Their presence didn't affect me that way, and I'm not aware that they affected anyone else that way. To me the transition was probably hard for them, but it was not hard for us.

Marcello:
That's a good point, I think, and very accurate. Obviously, there was a heck of a lot more pressure on them, I'm sure, than there was on you or any of the other white ball players.

Russell:
And I'm sure there was a lot less on Perkins, for instance, than it would have been on Leon and Abner because by then they were not that big a novelty probably. I don't remember...I don't suppose that Perkins and Christle were in the athletic dorm either. I don't remember them being there.

Cummings:
They didn't let blacks in the North Texas dormitories until the mid-sixties almost. It was 1964 or 1965 -- almost the Joe Greene era -- before they started letting them in.

Russell:
I can remember...I just might have been maybe a sophomore...and maybe George Herring and myself or a couple others were talking about it. We were a little upset that Abner and Leon were not given the opportunity to move into the dorm. That may not have been any sort of a popular feeling, but there were at least some that felt like they weren't being treated fairly. We asked Abner if he wanted us to see if we couldn't get some guys together, go to the coaches, getting up a petition, or make some demands on them to let him in the dorm. He said, "No, I don't want you to do that."

Cummings:
Do you think it would have worked?

Russell:
No, probably not.

Cummings:
If the coaches had said, "Yes, they can move in," knowing the kids and their attitudes at that time, their backgrounds at that time -- the kids that were in the dorm, I'm speaking of -- would that kind of situation have worked?

Russell t
I don't believe that it would have been any different than playing football with them; I mean, you take showers and dress and undress with them, so why wouldn't you be comfortable being in a room with them or next door to them? That's the way I think it would have been; I don't think that that would have been a problem.

Cummings:
Were there non-athlete students in the dorm? Obviously, there were, weren't there?

Russell:
No, not in this dorm. There were basketball players. The dorm was sort of separated. It was one building, but there were two entrances, and we called them the "Thump-Thumps." The basketball players were in one end, and we were in the other end -- the football players. From time to time, there may have been a few students who were not athletes to get into that dorm, I guess, just because the space was there. I don't know. I can remember from time to time there being one or two guys in the building who weren't athletes, but for the most part, they were athletes. Athletes had a little private section of the cafeteria which was separated from the cafeteria where the other students who lived...well, this is part of the Quadrangle. There were four buildings there together, and everybody in the Quadrangles ate in the cafeteria, and the athletes had a little separate area over there where they dined.

I don't think having Abner and Leon there would have been any different than having them on the football field. I think the problem of them not being there was in the minds of the coaches and administration more than it was the players. I think they may have regarded that as just too big a step -- just to do all those things at once. I don't know.

Cummings:
It sounds like Abner himself really didn't want any more attention of his presence than whatever happened.

Russell:
That may have been the case, but, of course, you have to understand that there weren't really any black students on the campus. It may have been that he had more opportunity for a social life living in a black community than he did out there on the campus. He may have preferred that situation to having to be up there. I don't know.

Marcello:
I think from what Leon has told us, one of the maladjustments so far as he was concerned was having to make that long trek back to South Denton after practice, going past the dormitory...it was just the whole process of having to get from the practice field to where he lived in South Denton. It was a real hassle.

Cummings:
Did you go visit Abner and Leon where they lived?

Russell:
No, I don't think I ever knew where they lived.

Cummings:
There again, you had no curiosity?

Russell:
No, I had very little curiosity about it. I guess I had some, but I think after Abner said, "No, I don't want you to do anything about trying to help me get into the dorm," or whatever it was we were trying to do, I think I probably didn't wonder about it that much anymore. I think I wondered about it at the time. I had no classes, that I can recall, with either Abner or Leon, so, you know, I'm not going to see those guys except occasionally crossing campus or down at the practice field. So, you know, they're just not in your mind that much under those circumstances.

Marcello:
Awhile ago, you were talking about the coaches and people in the administration. Generalize at this point, if you will. Obviously, from what we've said and what we know, the coming of Abner and Leon went rather smoothly, all things considered. What role, in general, did the coaches play in this transition?

Russell:
I'm sure that behind the scenes they had a lot of concerns about how to handle the situation, but their problems and the things that they did in that connection were not really apparent to the players. They occupied the same kind of facilities that everybody else did down at the lockers and the practice field, and there wasn't anything separate about their treatment down there or at team meetings or that sort of thing. There were never any real comments or discussion by the coaches about how we should conduct ourselves. I just don't recall Coach Mitchell getting in any kind of a dialogue with the players that had to do with treatments or problems or associations with the black players. I guess the most surprising thing about all that is that it would be Odus Mitchell and his staff that would have been responsible for that happening.

Cummings:
Why is that?

Russell:
Because Odus just doesn't strike me as being your real trendsetter or pioneer kind of fellow, you know. He was always a rather...I don't know if "stoic" is the right word because he wasn't the Tom Landry type who never smiles. But on the other hand, he was not a real jolly sort of a character. I think he was probably a very nice man, but he was not particularly personable, and he was somewhat stoic and conservative. At least in my view, he seemed like a very conservative sort of fellow. I don't know anything about his politics, but just in the way he dressed and the way he presented himself, he certainly didn't, as I say, present himself as any trendsetter.

Looking back, you wonder it could happened, but I think it was to happen because he and his staff were accustomed to putting together pretty good football teams the best way they could -- you know, old guys out of the military, guys who had trouble at SMU and transferred to North Texas, guys who had maybe a good deal of athletic ability but maybe weren't quite big enough, and a few maybe that the TCU coach or somebody else...because we did have a lot of really good athletes on the smallish side. Maybe other coaches figured, "Well, they're not going to be big enough to make it here." So I think they were accustomed to putting together teams from unconventional ways in order to put together a good team.

Maybe recruiting blacks was another part of that process. I don't think it had anything to do with a desire to be a pioneer. I think it had to do with putting together a football team. I don't think it had anything to do with integrating North Texas State or anything to do with the university per se at the outset.

Marcello:
The president at that time was J. C. Matthews. Give me a student's impression of Dr. Matthews.

Russell:
Dr. Matthews was not well-regarded by the student-athletes. It may have been that the more academic types held him in more esteem. He was a rather frail, withdrawn person who had little or no regard for the athletic program. Consequently, most of the athletes had little or no regard for Dr. Matthews. Because he was such a frail, fragile-acting person, he was, I guess, the subject of some amount of ridicule about that.

He was not a person who had any inclination to project himself in the campus life or to associate himself with any student activities. He was strictly interested administration and academics and was pretty much aloof as far as students were concerned.

Marcello:
Would you call him an authoritarian figure?

Russell:
No. Because he was not that strong. He was not that at all because he was not strong or imposing as far as his character was concerned. His leadership at the school was not apparent to your average student as being very positive. Oh, I'm sure that he was a person who was vitally interested in developing a good school academically. Students, I would think, would tend to identify with and like someone who would be more visible to the students, and he was not. He was no "Jitter" Nolen (laughter).

Marcello:
He certainly was not a "hail-fellow-well-met."

Cummings:
Or a Frank Vandiver or an Al Hurley.

Russell:
He was referred...I think a lot of the people I knew, the student-athletes, referred to him as "J.C.," which was sort of a way of showing a little disrespect.

Marcello:
The faculty always assumed that "J.C." stood for Jesus Christ.

Russell:
(Laughter) Right. I'm trying to remember the name of the dean of women at that time. She was a large, red-haired lady.

Marcello:
Imogene Dickey.

Russell:
Imogene Dickey. I think the students often speculated about the relation ship between J.C. and Imogene jokingly (laughter). You know, if you went on a fraternity scavenger hunt, you might be asked to get some sort of nude picture of J.C. and Imogene (laughter).

Cummings:
Do you recall...

Russell:
I'm better at remembering those sorts of things (laughter).

Cummings:
It was a lot more fun to recall. In the spring of 1955, there was a court order that, in effect, forced North Texas to open its doors to black undergraduate students. It was filed by a black youth from Dallas Lincoln High School who attempted to get into North Texas and was not allowed. Do you recall any publicity, any newspaper articles, any word-of-mouth talking about that?

Russell:
Only very vaguely. I just recall of being aware that there were, you know, the beginnings of that sort of thing, and being aware in my own mind that the integration of schools was inevitable and that some sort of attempt was being made at that time.

Cummings:
I guess that court order had no effect in your thought process of considering North Texas as a place to go to school.

Russell:
Well, I was not aware of that before I went to school, so it could not have formed any part of my decision-making process. I doubt that it would have made any difference if I had known that. It would be a different deal if somebody said, "Now, okay, Jerry, this school up here that you're about to go to is about 70 percent black." I might have given that some thought, you know. But the fact that some black students were going to be on campus was not disturbing or remarkable as far as I was concerned. Again, I was just aware that those things were evolving and was interested in maybe a more than casual way, but not vitally interested, say, at all.

Cummings:
To what can you lay the cause at your apparent non-concern for integration at this time? Can you see any reason in your upbringing? Your family?

Russell:
Well, I think that children have the tendency to pick out things in the behavior of their parents and other adults that they find distasteful or wrong. One of the things that I picked out, that I didn't like about the things that adults and parents would say, was their attitude toward blacks, because I hadn't had contact with them. I couldn't see...I didn't know any reason why it should be that way. I didn't have any reason to feel threatened, as far as my position or personally or any other way, by blacks. I had never had any bad relationships with what little contacts I'd had with blacks, so that was one of the things that I made up my mind that I didn't think was acceptable about some of the attitudes I had been brought up with. Not to say that I don't have any prejudices, but I did have some aversion to the degree of prejudice that I saw. I didn't feel like getting on my white horse about integration or anything. It was just that...it was just, again, something that I didn't feel threatened about or that I thought that there ought be any great hubbub about. Again, if it had been a reverse situation where I had been in the minority and the blacks had been in the majority, then I could have had a great deal of feeling, but that just wasn't the case.

Cummings:
Did most of the kids in your peer group as you grew up have that same kind of attitude and so on?

Russell:
Not necessarily. I'm not sure that I knew what their attitudes were because, again, it wasn't something that you discussed.

Cummings:
I guess, since you didn't come into contact with many blacks, you couldn't see any kind of prejudice within them in action.

Russell:
That's right. Well, you were aware. You could see in them the influences of their parents because they would say things and do things that you knew instinctively they were getting from their parents. So you were aware that some of your friends were developing the same sort of attitudes that their parents had. You were also aware that some of the students were being a little more independent about the development of their attitudes, too. But you didn't discuss those things with one another. Those were just, again, impressions that you get, things that you learn without having to talk about...observations.

Cummings:
How do you reflect back on this whole topic and the fact that you were a participant and that you were there and actually witnessed the integration of athletics?

Russell:
Up until now...

Marcello:
Up until now, you never really thought about it (chuckle).

Russell:
Never really thought about that. I answer a lot of questions about it over the years in connection with, "Well, I guess you knew Abner," you know, because it wasn't ever really any questions about integrating the school or anything like that. It was always, "Gosh, you must know Abner Haynes, who was a professional football player," because there weren't very many guys to go into pro ranks at that particular time from the Texas schools that did well. There were some. North Texas always had a few along about that time -- going into Canadian ball and other professional teams.

I guess that sort of reminds me, and it would be interesting to know...it doesn't have anything to do with what we're doing here, but I guess my first session in the legislature was the first session there were any blacks. We had single-member districts that year, so we had Craig Washington, Mickey Leland, and some of those people. I don't think there had been any blacks in the legislature before then. I guess it was a sign. There are a lot of parallels in terms of the way associations and attitudes formed.

Cummings:
In hindsight, with the knowledge of what was going on at that time in Arkansas and elsewhere, are you a little surprised and a little amazed that this whole transitional period went as smoothly as it turned out to have done?

Russell:
Yes. And I think I was probably a little bit aware at the time that there was a potential for problems because you saw it occurring at other places, and I think I probably consciously thought that it was remarkable that, you know, we never really had anybody around the campus even start to create any problems. Nobody that I knew of on the campus raised any objections or even exhibited any attitudes that there ought to be some sort of uprising or ruckus raised about it. It was just a totally smooth deal from the standpoint of the white student. Again, it probably wasn't all that smooth from the standpoint of the black student, but it was relatively easy on them as compared to other places, it appears.

Cummings:
Yes, that's the thing that constantly amazes me. You pick up the newspapers of those times, and you're getting these huge pictures and stories about problems they're having in Arkansas. Then here in little ol' Denton, a small country community, things are going so smoothly on the mixing of blacks and whites on the football field. It just amazes me that the participants we've talked to treat it was no big deal.

Russell:
Yes, I guess that is surprising. I don't have any explanation for it, other than maybe a lot of the people who were there were raised in a time and under circumstances that were similar to my upbringing. Maybe they didn't have any reason to get uptight about it.

Marcello:
You didn't mention anything concerning reactions from the townsfolk in Denton, and I assume the reason you didn't mention it is because there basically were none, in a negative sense, from the townsfolk.

Russell:
No. Abner and Leon were not the crusader types. They weren't going to go out and crawl on the stool at a restaurant and say, "Here I am. What are you going to do about it?" You know, they didn't do that. I'm sure that that had a lot to do with the fact that there weren't any ripples in the city of Denton, either. I think they probably would have been accepted, maybe not at all places, but nobody forced any issues. Because nobody forced any issues, the transition was able to happen on a gradual enough scale that confrontations just weren't necessary.

Marcello:
Well, Mr. Russell, that's all the questions we have. We want to thank you very much for having participated. You said a lot of important and interesting things that, I'm sure, will help Randy and me in our work.

Russell:
Well, I was happy to give you what information I can. I'm afraid it was precious little, but it is sort of fun to recall some of those things because I never think about them. I appreciate you coming all the way out here.

Cummings:
Thank you for your time.

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