University of North Texas Oral History Collection

Interview with Jerrell Shaw
Interviewer: Dr. Ronald E. Marcello, Randy Cummings
Place of Interview: Ft. Worth, Texas.
Date of Interview: January 12, 1983

Dr. Marcello:
This is Ron Marcello and Randy Cummings interviewing Mr. Jerrell Shaw for the North Texas State University Oral History Collection. The interview is taking place on January 12, 1983, in Fort Worth, Texas. We are interviewing Mr. Shaw in order to get his reminiscences and experiences while he was a football player at North Texas State University during the integration of athletics at that school.

Mr. Shaw, to begin this interview, just very briefly give me a biographical sketch of yourself. In other words, tell me when you were born, where you were born, your education -- things of that nature.

Mr. Shaw:
Well, I was born on December 7, 1936, in Hunt County, Texas. I played ball at Royce City High School. I came to North Texas in 1955, and I graduated in 1962, after I got out of the service. I went to work for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. I worked for the USDA for twenty years and resigned three years ago, which would be 1979. I started my own firm about sixteen years ago, about ten years before I resigned, an international marketing company. That takes us up to date, primarily.

Marcello:
What kind of activity do you market and so on?

Shaw:
Oh, we have around six to eight thousand different items -- everything from televisions to undergarments, a full line of cosmetics and personal care items. You name it, and we've just about got it.

Marcello:
You mentioned that you were born in Hunt County, which is East Texas so far as I'm concerned. What sort of environment were you raised in there with regards to relations between the races and so on?

Shaw:
I was raised on a farm. Of course, we had blacks that worked on our farm for years and years. In fact, I had a black nanny. All the children in our family looked at her as our second mother. Of course, there was segregation and everything at that time, and there was definitely a class differential. There's no question about that. But at the same time, we had very close ties to the blacks. I don't guess... well, I would like to say that I wasn't prejudiced, but I know I was. But there was a difference there, as far as being close to them and having been raised with them in a farming community. But we recognized the difference. While my nanny was all right, the other blacks weren't.

Marcello:
Would it be safe to say, from what you've said, that there was a recognition of who was superior and who was the inferior race?

Shaw:
There's no question about it. That's the way we were raised. They were in their place and were often... I wouldn't say poverty. I guess all of us were in poverty, but we didn't recognize it. But they were at a lower scale of economics than we were, obviously, and they had harder work and more menial work than we did. I can remember back, you know, when I would be picking cotton, and my nanny's husband would put cotton in my sack, you know. That doesn't mean that much, but I can remember that because they didn't want me to have to work that hard. I'd get paid by my dad for the cotton I had picked -- what we had picked (chuckle). So there was a differential, always.

Marcello:
Now in terms of the actual farm itself, was it large enough that it had sharecroppers, or were these simply hired hands?

Shaw:
These were hired hands. They lived on the property. They helped work the property, and during the winter my father would give them money to buy groceries and everything else. Then during the summer, cotton picking time and harvest time, they would work those debts off. That's just the way it was. One thing that we always remembered about the blacks is that they were always in debt. But it was, of course, because their income wasn't near what ours was, obviously. I didn't recognize that at that time, but that's the only thing I saw.

Marcello:
As a young lad, did you play with blacks, or was it exclusively with whites?

Shaw:
Well, yes, we played with blacks. I don't remember that many black children -- I really don't -- so obviously maybe we were more apart than I realized. The people who worked for us, as I remember, were older folks who didn't have any children. They'd have grandchildren possibly come over, but I don't even remember them. I don't even remember their names.

Cummings:
Was that even true in junior high and high school when you got older?

Shaw:
Yes. I can remember when my youngest sister, who was twelve years younger than I am... when she was born, we had a different black lady that cooked for us and took care of Mother and the new baby. There still, I don't remember any children, not to speak of... I don't remember.

Marcello:
I assume that when you went to school, it was a segregated situation there, also,

Shaw:
Sure. Oh, yes. There were no blacks at all. You mean in high school?

Marcello:
Yes.

Shaw:
Oh, definitely not in high school. There wasn't even any at North Texas when I went to North Texas. I went to North Texas in May of 1955, and there were no blacks on campus, athletes or anything else. Really, I didn't even think about it. I don't remember even contemplating it. It wasn't an issue.

Marcello:
I guess that's the way things had always been.

Shaw:
That's the way it had always been. In Royce City, we had a black school, and we had a white school, by the way, newer than ours. But I don't ever remember coming in contact with blacks. None of the high school teams that we played had blacks on their team. It was just a white and black situation. There was not a mixed situation at all.

Marcello:
I assume that in interscholastic athletic competition, it was white school against white school. It was never white school against black school.

Shaw:
Never. Never. I never played against a black or white a black until I got to North Texas.

Marcello:
Again, to sum up this particular part of your life, would you say that basically there really wasn't, on the part of you and your family, a hatred of blacks; rather, there was this recognition of the inferior and the superior group?

Shaw:
Right. That's right. Well, actually, there was a recognition of the difference, but the only exposure we had was through a love situation for the lady that came to our home and took care of my mother and my younger sister and myself as I was growing up. Anytime my mom or dad got sick, we'd have the black lady come up and take care of us during the day. So it was more or less a love situation. It wasn't a hate situation.

Marcello:
We use the term "black" when speaking of race today. What were the terms used at that time that you remember?

Shaw:
N*****. There's no question about it. That was accepted both by them and by us. I said "accepted" by them. I guess it was not accepted by them, but they never... I was never... I don't ever remember calling the black nanny a n***** -- never -- because she could spank me (chuckle), and I recognized her authority (laughter). Of course, now I can remember my mother and father... and they would condone them just wearing the dickens out of us if we got out of line. Otherwise, we would have had a mutiny all the time with us and three more kids.

Marcello:
I suppose it's also true, is it not, that usually when addressing one of the blacks, it was always by his or her first name as opposed to Mr. or Mrs.

Shaw:
Right. It was always "Mammy." That was our name for her. I'm trying to think of her husband's name, but I can't. I can't do it. But I had a real good relationship with Mammy.

Cummings:
When you were in high school, you said that your school was right across the street from the black high school, if I remember correctly.

Shaw:
About a quarter of a mile. You could see it from our school. You could see the black kids playing when we were playing.

Cummings:
It seems, to my recollection, that at that time the two schools, the black school and the white school, played their high school football games on different nights. I think Friday night was set aside for all the white schools, and if I remember correctly, the black schools played on Thursday or Wednesday. Did you or any of your buddies ever watch their workouts, watch their games, go to the games, or was that strictly off-limits?

Shaw:
As I remember, the black athletes in Royce City... we didn't have an athletic team for the blacks in my city. They went to Greenville, which was sixteen miles away. There was a bus provided for them to go up there and back. I guess maybe that was even in high school... I don't know. It was not something I was even aware of, other than I knew the blacks were down there, and we were up here. But they did go to Greenville to high school, so I guess there was only a grade school in my city.

Cummings:
You probably never saw organized black athletes.

Shaw:
Never. Never.

Marcello:
When did you first develop your interest in football?

Shaw:
That's a long story, if you have several hours. We do conduct motivational seminars, and that's one of the things I talk about, because we came from a very modest background. My mother and father provided my older brother and older sister a college education, but as circumstances dictated, whenever I got ready to go to college, he was not able to send me.

The little community was Grand Point. There was no high school or anything, just several grades. I found this oblong ball in the cloak room, and I saw that as a way of becoming free of the farm because at that time I was going through a period of my life that I thought, "Man, the farm is nothing! Nothing on the farm but work!" That's all that I'd ever seen. I said, "I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to be saddled with this type of life." I didn't even know what a football was. I didn't know what it meant. I attached myself to that football and said, "That's going to be my secret. That's going to be my freedom."

Marcello:
How large a farm was this?

Shaw:
We had... let's see... 125 and seventy-two at that time... and then eventually we purchased 580 more. We're talking about a 225-1,000 acre farming operation. So there's a lot of hard work available. Then my grandparents lived right up the road. Obviously, we lived a long way out in the country.

Marcello:
When did you start playing football on an organized basis?

Shaw:
In the sixth grade. During that period of time, we moved from Hunt County into the Royce City School District. I still lived in Hunt County, but I moved closer to Royce City. In the sixth grade, they said that we could come out for football. My father was adamantly opposed to it because I had too many chores to do at home. But I did it. I could still do it in the day, and it didn't interfere. So I started in the sixth grade... sixth, seventh, and eighth, and then freshman in high school.

Marcello:
What positions were you playing at that time?

Shaw:
I played offensive and defensive end in the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. Then I played guard because I was so heavy -- 165 pounds -- in my freshman year in high school (facetious remark). Then in my sophomore year, I went to halfback, and I played halfback the rest of my high school career.

Cummings:
The organized ball... was that where you really learned about the game, or had you played in enough pick-up games as a kid prior to the sixth grade to know something about the sport?

Shaw:
No, about the only thing we learned in the sixth and seventh grade was what it would kind of take. I can remember being petrified at the thought that I might not make the team in the sixth grade, and so I worked very hard at it. I made the team. I made the first unit from then on all through high school. I think that primarily the only thing I learned in the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade was that you better hustle, or you were going to be on the second team (chuckle). We didn't learn very many fundamentals because... our high school coach changed my freshman year in high school, which was real good. The previous coach was good, but he had old theories. I never will forget John Prentice Drennan, a good Irishman. He finished out his coaching at Trimble in Dallas... not Trimble Tech. I can't think of it. Was it Crozier Tech? Maybe it is Crozier Tech. Anyway, he was a super guy. He had all of us spooked... scared to death. He taught us the fundamentals of football. He taught us defense. The only thing I'd ever known before that was "run 'em." "Run at 'em, hit 'em, run over 'em." My freshman year, Drennan came along, and he taught us the real fundamentals of hard-knocking football. I'm really proud and happy about that, too,

It's funny, the different philosophies that you pick up along the way. Of course, Odus Mitchell was the coach when we came to North Texas. Dear Odus is a fantastic individual and a tremendous coach -- one of the best coaches in the United States at that particular time. He has the record to prove it. But he had a completely different philosophy. It's strange how those philosophies, which are completely different, correlate together to accomplish the same thing. I was frustrated my freshman year in college because it was completely different,

Marcello:
You mentioned earlier in our conversation that you use your football experiences in the motivational seminars that are conducted in relationship to your marketing operation?

Shaw:
Yes. Well, you know, success in business is the same as success in football, athletics, or success in anything. It's attitude... and I think Bear Bryant calls it "guts." He says, "Football is 90 percent guts and 10 percent knowledge." That's probably right. I like his philosophy. That was the Drennan philosophy -- hit them hard enough and often enough, and they respect you (chuckle).

I use it in conjunction with... you've got to have the attitude. I wanted freedom, and the only way I knew, even as a six or seven year old kid... I found something that I didn't know anything about that I attached freedom to. I held hold of that as my pacifier until I could find something else. I'd decided that that was going to be my ticket, and it was my ticket because I would not have been able to go to college. Financially, my folks would not have been able to put me through college had I not had an athletic scholarship. I had about ten or twelve athletic scholarships offered whenever I graduated from high school.

Marcello:
You must have had a premonition as to what my next question was. Describe the process by which you got to North Texas. Why North Texas?

Shaw:
That's a real strange one. You know, I had a scholarship to... well, I guess high school athletes get college recognition and recognitions from college the last two years they're in high school. I was a good athlete, and I played good ball. I had a good coach, and I had a good football team. We had won a lot of games, and there's a lot of good players sitting on 1-9 teams that don't get the recognition. I was voted into the high school all-star football game.

Prior to that, in my senior year, I was offered a scholarship to Mississippi State and Ole Miss. I had a scholarship at Baylor -- I don't even remember who was down there -- and SMU. I had a half-scholarship to SMU. Odus Mitchell came to a track meet at East Texas. He watched me run track and asked me if I wanted to play college football. I had a cousin that was playing football at North Texas State.

Cummings:
What was his name?

Shaw:
Jerry Young. Jerry Don Young. He's the purchasing agent for the Garland School System. So he says that Jerry had mentioned that I may want to go to college and play football. He had come up to watch me and wanted to talk to me about it. So I just fell in love with the man. He has such a true, honest... he came across real well. He came across as honest and loving, which he is.

I had visited the schools in my senior year. Oh, it was wild. I was raised with a Christian background and Christian parents that went to church every Sunday, and I really didn't care too much about some of the language that some of them used. I'll tell you, Bear Bryant is unreal.

But I had a scholarship to Mississippi State, and I would have probably gone to Mississippi State had Darrell Royal not left Mississippi State and gone to... I think he went to Washington State at that time. He may have gone to Texas. I've forgotten what year he went there. Darrell Royal was my coach in the all-star football game. I think Wade Walker was his assistant, and he stayed at Mississippi State. I liked Royal. Royal was a fantastic person, but that's the person I'd kind of talked to, and I didn't know Walker.

So I felt like North Texas being close... I was a homebody. I was an ol' country boy. I didn't want to get too far away from home, especially out there in Mississippi. And I would have had to go through alligator country to get there (laughter). You know, for an eighteen-year old, it just seemed like an awful long way, so that basically... and then Odus Mitchell came back by the school about a month or so later (telephone rings).

Marcello:
So you were more or less recruited directly by Coach Mitchell as opposed to one of his assistants.

Shaw:
Yes. I never met an assistant before I got to North Texas.

Marcello:
Had he ever seen you in action?

Shaw:
No, I don't guess he ever had, other than running track. But at that time, I weighed about 185 pounds, and I ran a ten second hundred yard dash, which I found out, after I got up there, wasn't very fast, but it was pretty fast for Royce City. So, no, I guess he hadn't... I don't really know the answer to your question. Now maybe one of the assistants might have. We certainly didn't have films of the games, Royce City (laughter). That was a luxury you didn't have.

Cummings:
Just word-of-mouth, I guess,

Shaw:
That's right. They might have had audios of them (laughter).

Marcello:
What classification was Royce City?

Shaw:
Class B. I don't know what they even are now, I guess A or AA. We played a good brand of football. We didn't play any Class B schools except for the ones in our conference. We played Rockwall, which won AA and AAA... Van, Texas, which had won the AA state championship the year before -- played them. We played a good schedule, a very respectable schedule, even though we were in Class B.

Cummings:
You mentioned that high school all-star game you played in. Were there any other district honors or state honors that you achieved in high school?

Shaw:
Well, they didn't have an All-State team in Class B, that I know of. If they did, I didn't win it (laughter). Well, I was on what they called an All-Area team out of... Greenville Times-Herald or Greenville Herald or something like that. I'm going to show my age here in a minute if I can't remember the names. But they had an area football team, and I made that. Of course, I made All-District, I don't remember how many years I got it... the last two or three years in our conference.

Marcello:
What was your weight at the time you graduated from high school?

Shaw:
I weighed 185 pounds. I weighed 185 pounds, and I played halfback.

Marcello:
You went to North Texas in what year?

Shaw:
In 1955, I played up there at about 200 pounds. In my junior and senior years, I played at 215 pounds.

Cummings:
So I guess, in conclusion, Coach Mitchell's personality really was the big factor in your going to Denton.

Shaw:
Yes, it really was. And I guess, my cousin... you know, an ol' country boy who goes somewhere where he knew somebody was a real benefit. Odus Mitchell was primarily the reason. I think, in answer to your question, it was Coach Mitchell. He was just such a super guy. He wasn't the type of person that you were ever going to be good friends with, but you knew if you ever needed a friend, you could call him. He was a good man. I still think a great deal of Odus. You know, at those times you don't respect people for certain things. I respected him in high school, and I got up there, and I said, "Oh, well, you know." That's the way it is in life. When you get out in business, you know, you say, "Oh, if I was only in Houston -- all these people," you know. It's the same thing in all professions. Just like you'd say, "Oh, man, if I was at the University of Houston or, "If I was at SMU... " It's the same thing. The same opportunities are available to us wherever we are. We make our own opportunities. About my sophomore or junior year in college, I recognized that. Boy, he was a good man.

Cummings:
What kind of plugs for North Texas did your cousin give you? Do you recall that?

Shaw:
Yes, He told me it was a good school and had a good coaching staff and played good football (I knew that). At the time I think they were in the old Gulf Coast Conference, but they had already been invited, I think, in the Missouri Valley Conference or knew they were going to be invited into the Missouri Valley, before I went up there. So I knew it was a good place. But my cousin didn't really pressure me under any circumstances to go because he knew that I had some other chances. I guess he didn't want to get involved. I don't blame him. I respected him for that. We were roommates after I went out there, so it worked out real well. We'd always been real close.

Cummings:
I just find it interesting when you say that you had offers from Mississippi State, Baylor, and SMU. Kids today wouldn't even give North Texas or a school of that level a second glance if he was getting approached from those schools.

Shaw:
You know, I think North Texas misses a lot of opportunities because I think there are a lot of kids out there that would give a chance to North Texas versus these other schools if they really got a solid offer and were hustled a little bit by them. I really do. Just like there are kids right here at Eastern Hills that are fantastic football players. As far as I know, North Texas hasn't even talked to them, and they should. They got Carter, who came from right up here at North Richland Hills that has done a real good job for them, I think, the last two or three years. He was a little bitty kid, here, but he was a good football player here -- a fantastic football player. Of course, that's getting into the athletics. But I think they should hustle more. I know they've got to devote their time, just like we do in business, to where it's going to pay them back the most. I know they've got to hustle the kids they think they can get. They can't devote a lot of time to Atkins's. I'm not talking about Atkins -- he's a blue chipper. But I've seen a lot of blue chippers never play a down of college football. I've seen a lot of guys that have walked on like George Herring from Snyder that played with us. He was a little 168-175 pound... he never weighed over 175 pounds in his life. He run Hogan Wharton off the football field at the University of Houston game and handled him all night. He was fantastic football player who was just a complete walk-on. Really, he was too little to play tackle. He played offensive tackle. Hogan Wharton, who weighed 255 pounds, was already All-American the year before, his sophomore year, and George Herring ate him alive; I mean, he ate him (chuckle). It was real funny.

That's not being critical because they've got to put their time and effort into what they think they'll get the most return out of. But there's a lot of good players here that would choose North Texas. They may not get just exactly what they want. They may not have been hustled like they wanted to be hustled. Kids, you know, are funny.

I guess I went to North Texas because I felt like it was my best deal. Mississippi Southern and Mississippi State were two of the best schools that I got offers from. I also got offers from several junior colleges at that time, which they encourage you to go to and develop. Baylor and SMU were only half scholarships, so that wasn't going to cut it.

Marcello:
What sort of deal did you get with North Texas?

Shaw:
I got a full scholarship -- four years on what you call a "non-cut" contract or something like that (chuckle). I know one of the things the Missouri Valley at that time and the Gulf Coast paid fifteen dollars a month laundry money (laughter), and the Southwest Conference paid ten. You know, there are all kinds of silly little things that impress a kid. That's 150 percent better than the Southwest Conference.

Marcello:
So you got the standard roam, board, tuition, and laundry.

Shaw:
Yes. The laundry was fifteen dollars a month.

Marcello:
Where did you live when you matriculated to North Texas?

Shaw:
Quad II. That was the old athletic dorm. That's where I stayed the whole time I was up there. It used to be that all the Quadrangle was for men. That's where I met my wife. The last two years, girls moved in Quads III and IV. We had "Ma" Baker, who was our dietician. Where "Ma" Baker is, I haven't any idea. She was a super gal. There were a lot of fun things. You'd have to walk through the other cafeteria on the way to the training table, and you could have all you wanted.

Marcello:
You mentioned that you started at North Texas in 1955. The Supreme Court decision on ending segregation came down in 1954. I assume that it didn't affect Royce City in any way, shape, or form whatsoever.

Shaw:
(Laughter) I don't think it affected North Texas! No, it didn't affect Royce City. I didn't know anything about it. I wasn't interested in it. It had nothing whatsoever to do with my decision of where to go or anything else. I didn't even realize it, to be perfectly honest with you. At the time, it wasn't important.

Cummings:
Your first fall of football there was the fall of 1955?

Shaw:
Yes, September of 1955.

Cummings:
That puts you one year ahead of Abner and Leon.

Shaw:
Right. Abner came in 1956.

Marcello:
You would have come in, then, with Vernon Cole?

Shaw:
No, Vernon Cole came in with Abner.

Marcello:
He came in the same year Abner did.

Shaw:
Yes, There was only... there was seven... I came in with... I was trying to think of who I came in with. I won't remember all of them. Ed Gray and myself... a couple of kids from Hillcrest... Richard somebody was on a full scholarship... Bill Pope from Louisiana... and that's about the only ones I can remember. I should remember more, but... me and Ed and Howard Ramey, who was a walk-on from Hillcrest, also... fantastic football player. George Veep was up there at the time... Tommy Runnels was up there. I've got a real funny story to tell later about Tommy and Abner. But I was trying... "Buzz" Stansel, that was his last year... Ben Shepherd... "Buzz" Stansel, Shepherd, Dennis Shaw, Weldon Wright, Jerry Young... Weldon's out here with the school system at Arlington. I see him periodically.

Cummings:
That first year you came to North Texas, was there a freshman team designated as such?

Shaw:
No. We played on the varsity. Freshmen jumped right on in at that time. The next year, it changed.

Cummings:
Let's talk about that first year as far as you anticipations, your expectations in going up there, and then what eventually happened as far as playing time.

Shaw:
You know, my freshman year, I obviously didn't play very much. People like Tommy Runnels... and I forget some of the others... Wagers was a halfback... I don't know some of the rest of them. They were all up there in front of me, but I got to play a little bit my freshman year. I don't remember how much. The main thing, as far as I: was concerned, as a kid, is that I got to go along on quite a few of the road trips. So that was a lot of fun, and that's primarily what I remember of it. I didn't ever start a ballgame, obviously, but it gave me a lot of promise for my sophomore year.

Cummings:
You weren't discouraged?

Shaw:
Oh, no, I didn't expect to start my first year; I mean, I was modest (laughter). I knew I'd have to wait at least six months (laughter). But my sophomore year was different. I started several games my sophomore year. I didn't letter my sophomore year. I got hurt after I had started two or three games. I got hurt at Wichita Falls. I got a knee hurt and didn't get to play the rest of the year.

Cummings:
That was after the third game?

Shaw:
Well, I was trying to think of the guy in front of me. I wasn't on the starting unit, but the guy in front of me got hurt, and then I started two ballgames. I started against Hardin-Simmons, I think, and Midwestern. Then I got hurt the third ballgame, and I didn't get to play the rest of the season.

Cummings:
Did you earn a letter that first year?

Shaw:
No, I didn't letter except my junior and senior year. Odus wouldn't letter you unless you played (laughter). That made you mad as the devil. I thought, "My gosh, I started two games! It looks to me like I could letter!" He had his reasons. I respect that -- now.

Marcello:
Which of the coaches at North Texas seemed to have the closest relationship with the players? You mentioned, I think, a moment ago that Coach Mitchell was a little aloof or at least stayed in the background somewhat. Who'd you have the most direct contact with?

Shaw:
The backs had the most contact with Fred McCain and Ken Bahnsen. Ken, I think, worked with the defense. Fred worked with the quarterbacks, but he was also the backfield coach. That was my man -- Fred McCain. Fred's perfect for that position, too, because he was the type of person who could get close to the players and yet kind of be a buffer for Mr. Mitchell from having to be close. He got to hear all the nitty-gritty, and Coach Mitchell could stand above that, which is a necessary evil. You can't go out there and decide who starts and who plays on the basis of "I saw him smoking out there," and all that stuff, you know, which happens. Fortunately, Fred had gotten more intermingled into that than the others.

Marcello:
This more or less confirms something that Coach Mitchell told us when we talked to him, and that is that he didn't know about a lot of the things that actually went on at your level until it was told to him later.

Shaw:
That's right. He got it at the worst... he got to it after it was bad (chuckle).

Cummings:
That freshman year at North Texas, in those varsity games, do you recall playing against teams that had black players?

Shaw:
Now in my sophomore year, I did. See, my sophomore year we went into the Missouri Valley. We started playing some of the Missouri Valley teams. Like, Cincinnati, they had black players. You know, it wasn't just that big of a deal.

Cummings:
You don't recall any your freshman year?

Shaw:
No, I don't remember a soul. You have to remember, too, that we was playing the old Gulf Coast Conference -- Hardin-Simmons... we played Texas Western, which did not have black players, either... I was just trying to think...

Cummings:
Abilene Christian?

Shaw:
Abilene Christian? Well, we played them. We played... well, I don't know if we did. I think we played McMurray and Hardin-Simmons. I don't think we played ACC. We may have. I don't know.

Cummings:
That freshman year, 1955, I don't know if you were aware of it then, or even aware of it today, but there was a federal court ruling, I believe in the spring of 1955, that forced North Texas and other schools to open the doors to undergraduate black students. I don't know if you've ever heard of that ruling.

Shaw:
I never heard of it (chuckle}. It really impressed me (laughter).

Cummings:
(Laughter). But that ruling forced North Texas officials to let Abner and Leon walk on, which is essence is what they did. I was just curious if you or any of the other players were aware of that or even kept up with it.

Shaw:
No, I'm not aware of the ruling at all. The first thing I can remember was Coach Mitchell calling the ball club together before we ever saw any blacks in 1956, when Abner came in. I don't remember, by the way, Leon coming with him. I can only remember Abner. He told us that there was going to be a black football player that was coming up there to try out and that he did not want any problems whatsoever. That is in essence what Odus told us. He told us that he was not promoting it, but he didn't want any problems. In other words, he didn't [want] any fisticuffs over all this mess, that it would take care of itself. Just let them come up and work out, and that would take care of itself.

Marcello:
What was your initial reaction when you heard this -- you personally?

Shaw:
I don't really remember having one. It would be easy now to say I had a good reaction. I'm sure I wasn't very happy about it. After all, he was a halfback (laughter).

Marcello:
That's why you remember Abner and not Leon King.

Shaw:
Well, he came in and dressed right next to me for the next three years.

Marcello:
What was the reaction of your fellow players, if you recall, when this announcement was made?

Shaw:
See, I was a sophomore, so that probably put me at about nineteen years old. The seniors and the juniors -- I'll blame it on them (chuckle) -- I think some of them were hostile. Some of them said, "Oh, we'll get him. We'll run him off," and all that stuff. There were definitely two or three of them that decided that was what they were going to do -- physically, through football. Let me tell you, he took some terrific taps. There's no question about it. So there were three or four, five or six -- it may be more than that -- that I knew of that everytime they had a chance to really beat him, they were going to really make him pay the price.

He paid the price, and that's the reason I respect him so. Let me tell you, he got some licks; I mean, they weren't cheap shots. I'm not saying there weren't any cheap shots, because there probably was -- I don't remember any -- but that's the way he got his respect. That really is the reason why, I guess, Abner is remembered, because Abner could take the shots. He could give the shots; he could return them. He'd say, "I'll remember that." And, boy, let me tell you, the next time he got a shot at old Wagers, he'd hit him; I mean, he would tap him. So he played the game... not black or white or nothing else, but he played the game of football. He came up there a walk-on, and he earned his scholarship. I don't remember when he got it. I think he got a half-scholarship the second semester and then a full scholarship the next year.

I also remember he had to live dawn in the flats. I think you'd probably be surprised at the people who didn't really care. I think there were a lot more in the administration than there was among the guys. If they'd have moved him in there... you don't know. It's easy to say that now. He took everything in stride.

Now there's one thing I remember in my sophomore year... see, in my sophomore year, Abner was the freshman team.

Cummings:
You practiced with them, but they didn't play.

Shaw:
It was practice, you know. It was no big deal. He took the shots; he gave the shots. That gained him his respect. But what I remember about my junior year that, I think, is probably more important to history... because, see, nothing has affected me yet, other than a black guy dressing next to me, and that didn't bother me because I'd been around blacks all my life. But in my junior year, all of a sudden... we would go to Cincinnati. Now Cincinnati's in the North. My freshman year, I also went to Cincinnati. We stayed in a plush hotel... fantastic place to say. My junior year, with a black guy on our squad, we stayed down in a cheaper hotel. That's in the North. It was just as bad in the North. We went to play in Youngstown, Ohio. We stayed in the biggest dump you've ever seen in your life. I don't think that was the coaching staff's decision because they had to stay where the blacks were welcome. From that standpoint, we wondered, "What in the world?" I can remember this vividly: "What in the world is going on? North Texas is not losing its class!" All of a sudden... then we realized... I can remember some of us talking about it: "Son-of-a-gun! They're always talking about the South, and here we are, up here in the North, having to stay in the cheaper hotels."

Marcello:
Did you ever joke with Abner about this fact?

Shaw:
One of the funniest things that ever happened... and I want you to ask Abner about it because I don't think he'll ever forget it. I mentioned Tommy Runnels. Unfortunately, there will be blacks who will probably take offense to this, but for history I might as well tell it the way it was. My freshman year, the first thing that I started worrying about is that they called this guy, Tommy Runnels, "Little N*****." I don't know where it came from or anything else. So, of course, my sophomore year, which was Tommy's senior year, Abner was dressing next to me, and after he'd kind of got more or less on his own... it was close to the end of the season. He says, "Why do they call him 'Little N*****?'" I said, "I don't have any idea. That's what they've always called him." We called him "Little N*****." That was real strange because that might give you some idea as to the reaction the team had. They never had that much of a reaction. They did not stop calling Tommy Runnels "Little N*****" because Abner was there. Maybe it was disrespect. I don't know. I hadn't even thought of that. Maybe it was not showing respect to Abner that they did this, but I would imagine that Abner wouldn't have had it any other way.

Marcello:
Let's back up to that initial period one more time. Approximately, how far in advance did Coach Mitchell inform the team that blacks were coming?

Shaw:
I don't even remember.

Marcello:
Was it a matter of days? A week? Something like that?

Shaw:
No, I don't think it was... it may have been a matter of hours.

Cummings:
Do you recall if that meeting was called specifically to get the white team members together?

Shaw:
Yes, I think it was. It might have been a couple of days before he got there. I don't know how he could, because all of us got there for spring camp early. Maybe Abner didn't come early. But it was before Abner ever showed up. It was specifically called... well, I better not prejudge that. I'm sure that we had other things that we talked about, but that was discussed. It was obvious that that was the reason the meeting was called.

Marcello:
Do you recall whether he informed you as a matter of instruction, or was it kind of like a threat? In other words, "Don't any of you guys step out of line when those blacks come."

Shaw:
I can tell you, you didn't have to be told. Mitchell didn't operate that way. You knew not to step out of line. As far as cheap shots, saying anything to them, I'm sure that's what was discussed in the meeting. But he did not tell us that this was being forced down our throat by the courts. I think if he had have, it would have been a completely different situation. He informed us as a matter of fact that there was a black coming. Whether we liked it or not, he was coming to try out for the football team, and if he was good enough to play, he would play.

As I remember it, it came as a shock. There was talk about it afterwards and everything, so I'm sure it wasn't a matter of hours. It must have been a day or so, some way or another, before Abner arrived that Mitchell talked to us.

Cummings:
Do you recall seeing players that got so mad and upset to the point where they said, "I'm quitting the team," or "I'm not going to came out for football?"

Shaw:
No, I don't recall. Normally, when you got seventy guys, there are probably threats. You know, somebody from... I started to name a town. They might have, but I don't recall; but with seventy people, I'm sure that it happened. I just don't recall. I'm sure that some people had a lot stronger feelings about it one way or the other. The only ones I can remember are the older heads.

Marcello:
Again, this confirms what we have heard in other interviews, too. Okay, so the blacks arrive. Describe that day as best as you can remember it.

Shaw:
Well, you said blacks, and I only remember Abner.

Cummings:
We know for a fact that they came together because we talked to both of them (laughter).

Shaw:
Well, that's really something. I only remember Abner. You have to remember this because backs dressed in one area, and the ends dressed somewhere else, and the linemen dressed somewhere else. So Leon never was around. There wouldn't be any reason for me to remember him. However, it looks to me like I should remember Leon like I remember Abner whenever he got out of the car and walked down toward the dressing room.

It was an oddity. We just kind of sat around... but they didn't look all that big. From a personal standpoint, I was sizing then up to see how much competition this was going to be (laughter).

Cummings:
Do you think some of the other running backs were also doing the same thing?

Shaw:
Well, my thought after this was that I'd move to fullback (laughter). My junior year I did move to cornerback on defense, which I liked to play, and fullback in the backfield. It wasn't because of Abner, I don't guess, I don't really remember why.

Marcello:
Do you recall where you were when you first saw him, or them, coming?

Shaw:
Yes, as I remember, we were standing out in front of the dressing room. People that would come early would just kind of sit around, and a lot of them would go in and get their trousers on, their T-shirt, and their football shoes, and go out and just sit outside until everybody else kind of started arriving. I was either standing or it was in that mode, sitting on the back on the benches that they had over there -- these wrought iron benches, you how, strp iron -- rather than sitting on it like normal people. All the football players sat on the back with their feet on the seat, you know. We didn't want to be any different. So I was in that position.

I remember that he pulled up. I remember it was a big car. It seems like it was black (laughter). Maybe I just remember it as everything that day looking black. He got out of the car. I'm sure he was nervous. It seems like maybe one of his high school football coaches was with him, and he came down. Maybe there was three of them. I only remember Abner.

Marcello:
What were your first impressions of this guy?

Shaw:
That's real funny. Maybe it's all been blacked out because I have such a good impression of him now. I guess it was kind of neutral.

Marcello:
What did he look like physically?

Shaw:
He wasn't big. He didn't appear to be big. He certainly wasn't as big as I was. You how, it's real strange. When a football player is sizing up another football player, he only can look at his size on the football team. That's about the only way until you get on the field. That's all I remember, is just kind of looking him over and sizing him up for size. I didn't look to see if he looked mean or...

Marcello:
But he was the focus of you and your teammates' attention? Were you gawking?

Shaw:
Are you kidding? That poor kid (laughter)! Surely they trained him as to what he was going to have to go through because everybody was standing... nobody said a word, I'm sure. I don't remember anybody saying a word to him, and he didn't say a word to anybody. They went inside. I'm sure they walked down to the coaches' thing or whatever or probably went into the equipment room and got his equipment. So apparently he came after the rest of us got our equipment, so maybe that's the deal... I don't know... I really don't remember. I remember a lot more about what happened out on the field. You know, that would have happened no matter if it had been a new player, because we're going to tap somebody to see how bad they'd take the tapping. You're going to get tapped. You know you're going to.

Cummings:
When you were looking at him walking up and you were evaluating him as a football player, as much or more or less than a black player, did you think in your mind, like, "Hey, I can beat this skinny guy." How did you evaluate him?

Shaw:
I knew I was bigger. I didn't know how fast he was. I don't know. How do you evaluate something you've never seen? I had never seen a black athlete before in my life, to my knowledge. I never had been exposed to a black athlete, so I really didn't have anything except... the only thing that I could judge him on was just what a football player looks like, and that's size and speed and ability. I hadn't seen his speed; I didn't know anything about his ability. I just looked at his size. I said, "I'm bigger." I knew I didn't have to deal with him for a year (laughter).

Marcello:
Did he in turn more or less ignore you guys when he walked into the dressing room?

Shaw:
I don't remember one way or the other. I'm sure that we recognized him coming by and spoke, or maybe we didn't. I don't know. That would have been the good thing to have done. I'm sure we didn't do the good thing. We may have. He may have forced it.

Marcello:
I know that when people talk about Abner now, they usually remember him as fun-loving, jovial, and so on and so forth.

Shaw:
Oh, yes.

Marcello:
Was this all business when he came in that day?

Shaw:
Oh, it was strictly business. There was no funny things. You know, there was big chit-chat and storytellings out in front of the dressing room and everything, and there was a hush quiet when he drove up. There was nothing else said until he got out of our sight or out of our hearing distance, and then I'm sure there was "blah-blah-blah-blah," that he didn't look tough. That lasted about a week (laughter).

Marcello:
What happens when he comes out on the field that day?

Shaw:
You know, I don't... I remember him running out. I'll never forget this. (Chuckle) North Texas has solid white warm-ups... uniforms. Those white eyes and that black skin just glistened; I mean, it just looked like a neon sign, you know, out from under those... we had the white helmets, as I remember it, and the white workout uniforms. Ira always kept them spotless. Let me tell you, Abner and that black skin just shined out of that white uniform. That's the only thing I remember.

Cummings:
I'd like to back up for just a second. During the time between that team meeting when Coach Mitchell informed you that the black players were coming... between that time and that first practice, do you recall any of the players, after they got out of that meeting, getting together either back at the dormitory or out on the field and going, "Hey, what's going to happen?" Did you talk about it?

Shaw:
You know, some of this is supposition. I know what we normally did was go back to the dorm after a workout or after whatever, and we would shoot the bull about anything. It didn't make any difference. I'm sure that this was the focal point from the time it was announced to us until the time Abner arrived. I'm sure that some of them made their brag: "I'm gonna knock him silly," and all that stuff. You can imagine what it was. But I specifically don't remember a conversation where anybody said, "I'm going to tear his head off." I really don't. Maybe that was because the time was too short in between. I don't recall that. I do recall some of them who said that they were upset about it. I also remember it was some of the older guys.

Cummings:
Do you think some of the players then... or did this happen later? Did they ever react in a way of looking back and saying, "You know, this is an event. Not many white schools have black players, and here we've got two."

Shaw:
Yes, I remember.

Cummings:
Did they look at it from that viewpoint, or did they just not even think about it?

Shaw:
I don't know that we realized that we was part of history, from that standpoint. I just remember how gradually, by the end of that year, Abner had gained his respect. He had gained the respect of his peers, which was us, because he could put it out, he could take it, and he could dish it out. Basically, from an athletic standpoint, that's all athletes really ever expect. From that standpoint, they got respect. We never were... we never was exposed... he wasn't ever on the training table. He wasn't ever in the dormitory, so there wasn't the total exposure that athletes now have. We worked out with them. They went their way, and we went our way. Then the next year, they got a full scholarship, and they were still living in the flats. I guess it was the second year or third year... I don't know if they ever stayed in the dormitory.

Cummings:
I don't believe so.

Shaw:
I don't know. I didn't ever remember. Of course, I was only there two more years after he'd obviously made the cut.

Marcello:
When was it that Abner was assigned the locker next to you? At that very time?

Shaw:
I think it was the first day.

Marcello:
Describe the first encounter that the two of you had there at the adjoining lockers.

Shaw:
I don't really remember it (chuckle). I don't. And I should have. I'm sure that some people would have said, "Don't put him by me. Man, I'm not going to dress by any black," and all that stuff. I don't remember being asked, to begin with, and that was typical of Ira. The confrontation wouldn't have been with Abner, anyway; it would have been with Ira, who would have assigned him that locker. And you don't want to cross Ira. I can't think of Ira's last name. He was the equipment guy.

Cummings:
It's not DeFoor, is it?

Shaw:
Yes, Ira DeFoor, Let me tell you, you accounted for everything with Ira. You didn't complain about anything. If you wanted new shoestrings, you had to take your old ones, tied together, back to him. I don't know who they've got now, but, I guarantee you, he's not like Ira (laughter).

Marcello:
Did you have any reaction when you did find he was assigned the locker next to you?

Shaw:
No, not that I can recall.

Cummings:
Do you recall any early conversations, maybe during his freshman year, when you're sitting there, towelling off, drying, putting your shoes on, just talking about anything. Do you recall any of your early conversations?

Shaw:
Not really. The first conversation that I can remember was the one I related to you. He asked me what "Little N*****" meant. I said, "I don't know. That's what everybody calls him." Tommy Runnels. That might have been the thing that broke the ice. I don't remember saying anything to him at the beginning.

Cummings:
Do you know a reason for that? Do you recall a reason for that?

Shaw:
No, I don't. That was poor manners on my part, if I didn't. I don't recall sitting there... in fact, at the beginning, we felt like Abner was a bashful person. I think he was. I think he was very... well, not in awe. I think he was very... well, he knew the pressure. See, we didn't. I wasn't aware of the pressure that he was. You know, that takes a special person to come into a black situation like that and be the focal point, and probably get the cold shoulder like we must have given him up until... you know, I'm not saying that we didn't talk to him, but I don't remember any conversation. Probably one of the first things we would have talked about was what school he went to, because our previous coach was already at Crozier Tech. Of course, Lincoln was a black school, so it wouldn't have made too much sense to have asked him that. I just don't remember any small talk or anything like that.

Marcello:
Do you recall which of the white players were perhaps the first to break the ice, so to speak, and go out of their way to talk to him or befriend him -- things of that nature?

Shaw:
As I remember, it was some of the younger players. I don't think the juniors and the seniors that first year ever had too much to do with him because they knew it was just a matter of time, and they'd be going, anyway. So it wasn't really important to them. Probably some of the freshmen got close to him first.

All I can remember is a very shy person who dressed next to me. We all chit-chatted and everything, and I'm sure that after a couple of weeks, he joined us in the chit-chat.

It was a big deal, but then it wasn't a big deal. It was a big deal, but at the same time, after we got down to the job at hand, which was working out and playing football, that's what we did. You know, there was working out and playing football. That's what we did. You know, there were a lot of football players I didn't ever become close to. I became close to Abner, I guess, after the period of years because he dressed next to me. If he'd been on the other side of the room, I might not have ever become close to him.

Cummings:
Several of the participants that we've talked to, the coaches and several of the other players, all reflect back on this time in amazement because things did go so smoothly.

Shaw:
It went very smoothly,

Cummings:
They can't give a reason for why it went so smoothly because they look at that team at that time... and I guess you're almost a prime example. You're a country boy. You're from East Texas, where a lot of country boys were playing on those teams, and they had not had a lot of contact, if any at all, with black people. Here, all of a sudden, two of them come in, and things went relatively smoothly.

Shaw:
I think...

Cummings:
Do you look back on it and kind of wonder why things went so calmly?

Shaw:
I think... sure. There were no altercations at all. We'd have altercations between whites periodically ... not a lot... Mitchell didn't like altercations.

I think the way Coach Mitchell handled it was one of the reasons. He didn't force it down anybody's throat, but he let it be known that he didn't want any cheap shots, you know. We were there to play football. The guy was coming up here to try to make the ball club, and if he can make the ball club, he's going to make it. He told us that from the very beginning, so that put us all in the frame of mind... look, we knew Mitchell would let him play if he was better than we were. That was just as plain as day. So then it became... you know, getting down to the work of trying to make a ball club rather than trying to figure out who's black and who's white.

But I just remember Abner being a very shy person. That is about all I remember. I don't remember any conversations with him. I don't remember anybody ever having any off-color remarks toward Abner.

Marcello:
You did not hear any of those out on the practice field directed specifically at him?

Shaw:
I did not. Nor in the locker roam. That one situation... the only thing that really that we realized even before... after Abner had moved in... we realized we had another halfback over there, Tommy Runnels, that we were calling "Little N*****." And we were saying, "My gosh, that's what we call him. But he's a senior, and we're not going to change." So we just didn't... we didn't change. But it wasn't emphasized. We didn't run it into the ground. It was just a matter of... he asked, we told him, and that was it.

Marcello:
What role did the assistant coaches play in all of this?

Shaw:
You know, I don't even remember their role. I knew he was a halfback. But I don't remember Fred McCain ever addressing it. I guess the major role there was played by Coach Mitchell, as far as I'm concerned.

But I do remember a situation years later, even after I had graduated... in fact, it was in the early sixties... my wife and I were driving back to Abilene... we lived in Abilene. We passed Abner on the highway out here on I-30 one day, so I pulled over, and he pulled over on the other side. I pulled around and pulled back behind him. He got out, and we shook hands. You know how you "half-moon" hug people and everything, and I'm telling you what, we almost had ten wrecks! They just knew a white and black were fixing to have fisticuffs there on the side of the highway (chuckle). He said, "You know, we better pull up here to this roadstop or something, or we're going to cause a wreck." I'm not sure if he was... I was in the service, so it would have been after 1960. I must have been in on leave or something. I don't even know how we recognized each other or anything. I just remember pulling over to the side and getting out and shaking hands, visiting with him a few minutes. Everybody almost... and that was in the sixties. People just knew this black and white were fixing to get after it or were having an altercation.

Cummings:
The whole time period, the thing that continually amazes me is that we're talking 1955-56 when all this happened, and just four hundred miles to the northeast of here in Little Rock, Arkansas, all hell's breaking loose.

Shaw:
Yes.

Cummings:
And down here in little Denton, Texas, here's a bunch of country boys getting together with two blacks, and things are going smooth. When you reflect back on that time period, how much did the bond of the sport of football have to do with making this whole transition period calm?

Shaw:
Well, that's where he got his respect. It would have been... as I recall, and you all may correct me, I think Abner was the first black at North Texas State University, if I'm not mistaken. That may or my not be so, but he's the only one I knew of.

Cummings:
I believe they had graduate students at that time that were black, but no undergraduate black students could attend until this ruling in 1955. So in effect, he was the only one.

Shaw:
I think football had altogether... I think that was the melting iron that made us all become friends, or else we wouldn't have had the opportunity to. That's where he gained his respect. I mean, not that I wouldn't have any respect for you just meeting you every day going to work or meeting you every day going to class. I wouldn't have any reason to because from this fast world, neither one of us would probably take the time to visit. This made us stop... made us recognize him for what he was, and that's an athlete. That's all we dealt with there at the beginning, as I remember it.

I remember Abner taking some real good shots. Don't get me wrong, he was not just welcomed with open arms; I mean, all of us country boys up at Denton didn't just say, "Hey, blacks, come on!" You how, we had it, and we dealt with it the only way we knew how. I'm sure we put on a little extra leather everytime we had a chance to hit him.

But the key that made him gain our respect was that he paid us back. When he got a shot at us, he'd always remember. He'd stick that extra leather right in you. So from that point of view, you know, you can't hit somebody too many times in a sport and not respect somebody for what they do. Let me tell you, "Little Abner" could pop you. He was always a hitter. That's where he made his maker. And he was a good guy, too. He's just an all-around good ol' boy. I guess it's the good ol' boy syndrome. My gosh, that's a terrible world (chuckle).

Cummings:
Do you remember an early practice, maybe that very first practice, after he got the equipment, where you had a chance to stand back and watch him run?

Shaw:
Oh, sure, yes. We knew he was a good football player after we watched him practice. Of course, it was obvious. We had a lot of good football players. He was not all that small, either. Abner was very deceiving on his size. Abner was probably... let's see... that was 1956. I still weighed around 195-200. Abner probably weighed 190 pounds when he came there. He looked like he weighed about 165-170 pounds, something like that. Abner had weight in the right places, that really counted. That answered a lot of it, and I'm sure... but I don't remember specifically, just looking at him. He was good; you could tell that.

But I don't remember any certain incident. You see, I looked at him for three years, so it would be hard to go back and pinpoint one. I can remember the day he got there. I remember that about once a month at practice there would always be somebody who'd come up -- and I'm sure it was his dad -- and Abner would go out and visit with him a few minutes. Then he'd come back and join the workout. So I'm sure it was their folks. I think he and Leon were cousins or something like that.

Cummings:
Just close friends, I believe. They lived in the same neighborhood.

Shaw:
Well, they were both good athletes.

Cummings:
Well, when you were a sophomore, and Abner was on that freshman team, that freshman team went undefeated. I think they played five games.

Shaw:
Including TCU.

Cummings:
Yes. Do you recall the varsity players ... what their impressions were of that freshman bunch...

Shaw:
We knew we was going to have some talent coming up (laughter).

Cummings:
... with the two black players?

Shaw:
We knew we were going to have a better football team. If I'm not mistaken, my junior year was the first full year we played in the Missouri Valley. We won the Missouri Valley. We either won it or tied for it. I forget which one it was. I think we won it.

Marcello:
Did you perchance ever have an opportunity to visit or see where Abner lived while he was at North Texas?

Shaw:
No, I never did.

Marcello:
Awhile ago, you were talking about the fact that he did live in the black section of Denton and was not allowed to live on campus. You were mentioning this as perhaps being an administrative decision.

Shaw:
I don't think it was made because they were afraid that the football players and them would have altercations. That's all I meant. It must have been an administrative decision because we didn't have anything to do with it (chuckle). And I don't know... you know... of course, there was three to a room, so that might have had something to do with it. There wasn't three of them, obviously. I didn't know there was but one. Obviously, there was two of them. But then the next year, we had more. We had... didn't Perkins come up Abner's sophomore year?

Cummings:
I believe so.

Shaw:
Arthur Perkins and Billy Christle.

Cummings:
Billy Joe Christle.

Shaw:
Billy Joe Christle. In fact, that was one of the things that forced the Southwest Conference to rethink. They saw a lot of black players... there was only one school in the state of Texas where black athletes could go and get recognized in his own state. That was North Texas State. That's exactly the reason SMU in 1960 or 1961 opened the gate. They just could not see... who was the first one over there? Levias?

Cummings:
Jerry Levias.

Shaw:
Jerry Levias. They just could not see Jerry Levias coming to North Texas (chuckle). And that's where he would have come. That would have been his only choice, unless he went to the West Coast.

Marcello:
And you also mentioned awhile ago that Abner and Leon were not eating in the same chow line as the rest of the team.

Shaw:
No. We had what we called a training table. It was a cafeteria just like... it was a mini-cafeteria about four times as long as this room, and it was about the same width. That's where the athletes -- the "Animals" -- ate. Then next to it was a huge cafeteria where all the Quadrangles ate. So, no, I don't ever remember... maybe their junior or senior year. Junior year would have been the only one that I'd have had anything to do with.

Marcello:
Did you ever stop and think about that situation? Either where they lived, or the fact they weren't eating with the rest of the team?

Shaw:
You know, in reflecting back, I don' t guess we were very inquisitive generation (chuckle). I didn't really give it too much thought. I really didn't. I guess we assumed it wasn't any of our business, and that took care of it. I don't guess we were that inquisitive as far as wondering why or what-have-you.

Marcello:
A name that keeps cropping up in our interview is Vernon Cole. What can you tell us about Vernon Cole and his role in this?

Shaw:
Vernon was the quarterback on the freshman team that Abner played on his freshman year.

Marcello:
What kind a person was he?

Shaw:
Vernon was a super guy. He was a leader. He was the quarterback. He was a good athlete. He was an all but local guy. He was from Pilot Point. But I don't remember any part that he played actually in the story, other than that he was our quarterback when I... well, I guess he wasn't... yes, he was. I don't remember if he started or not my senior year. Did he start as a junior? Who was the other...

Cummings:
I think Ray Toole was the quarterback. He was a senior when you were a junior.

Shaw:
Ray Toole, I think... then Vernon was.

Cummings:
Yes, Ray Toole was two years ahead of Abner, I believe, and one year ahead of you.

Shaw:
Okay. Ray Toole and other quarterback that same year was... another guy from Kilgore. Ray was from Tyler Junior College. A guy from Kilgore Junior College was the other quarterback. I don't remember... he graduated the same year. I think he was the second-string quarterback, and Vernon may have been the third-string quarterback my junior year, which was Toole's last year.

But Vernon, I'm sure... well, Ray... he had two blacks on his football team, and I'm sure he was an integral part of keeping that team together because, you know, you've got a bunch of freshmen coming in there from everywhere in the world. He was a definite leader. I'm sure he played a big part in keeping that team together. That was his responsibility. But, see, they were back behind us, and the quarterback... Abner, as I recall... I don't know if he started his sophomore year or not, but he certainly started his junior and senior year. I was trying to think of the other halfback. Jack Wagers was a halfback and spelled some of the rest of them. But I don't even remember a great deal there because I wasn't back there. But Vernon was a fantastic football player. I understand Vernon is deceased now.

Marcello:
Did you mention that up until the coming of Abner and Leon, you had to had not played any collegiate football against any teams that had blacks?

Shaw:
I don't recall any. See, we were not playing a full Missouri Valley schedule my sophomore year, so we didn't play that many teams out of the North.

Marcello:
And I guess all those teams in that Gulf Coast Conference would have been segregated, also?

Shaw:
That's right, because it was Hardin-Simmons and ACC, ACU... so I guess we did play them my sophomore year. I don't know... ACC may have been in the Lone Star Conference. They may have stayed in the Lone Star. It was Hardin-Simmons... I ought to try to remember them because I don't know them. But they were more or less Texas ball teams.

No, I don't remember playing against a black until we got into the Missouri Valley my junior year. Then, a lot of the teams in that conference... Cincinnati, Drake, a little Kansas team that we played up there... I forgot what it was, but... Wichita, a little team... it was not the little team, but there was another team out of Kansas, also. But all of those had blacks on them when we got into the Missouri Valley. Now Houston didn't, and Oklahoma State didn't. See, my junior and senior year, Oklahoma State and Houston, both, were in the Missouri Valley.

Cummings:
Briefly, what can you tell me about another halfback that was on that varsity in 1957 by the name of Don Smith? Where was he in all this? Was he ahead of Abner on the depth chart, or... wasn't he another running back?

Shaw:
Don was a year ahead of me. Don may have started ahead of me my junior year. He may have been the one that got hurt, I don't remember. I cannot think of the other guy, and I know Don... Don Smith... I think he was the one who, during his sophomore year, started ahead of Abner. I don't think Abner started his sophomore year. That year we was playing two platoons, so one day one unit would start, and the other one would... so it was not that definite of a starter or a non-starter, anyway. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about or not, but you couldn't... what was the ruling? You couldn't play but seven-and-a-half minutes a quarter, and so they would platoon whole football teams. We would start one game, and the other team would start the next game. That's the way we did all year -- either my junior or my senior year. So I think Don Smith was the opposite halfback with me. I was the right halfback. Jack Wagers and Don Smith were both starters... and I cannot... a guy from Pampa... and I cannot think of that guy's name.

Cummings:
Could it be Bill Groce?

Shaw:
Bill Groce was a fullback. He was a fullback who transferred in from somewhere else. I forgot where. He wasn't a halfback. But Don Smith is with the North Texas Council of Government here in Arlington.

Cummings:
On that 1957 team, your junior year team, when Abner made it up to the varsity, was there one game or one play in one game that stands out in your memory as being when that team came together as far maybe something Abner did that you al ran out and congratulated him? Was there some instance which really joined the team together where you knew that that bond, regardless of color, was there?

Shaw:
Well, I'd be lying if I said that this was one of those times. I can remember a game when we played Cincinnati, and it was the first time we'd ever played them, so I know it was 1957. They were a huge ball club, and we played in Denton at Fouts Field. We pretty well... it was one of those games... you've seen a game where your hometown team just ran over them, I mean, just ran them ragged and never could score, like we did over at SMU for years and years and never could beat them. Cincinnati was that game. If I'm not mistaken, Abner scored... well, with about a minute and fifty-eight seconds left in the game, they scored and went ahead by 7-0. We were just crushed because we had really handled them all night long.

I remember that it was under two minutes to go, and they kicked off to us. I think Abner scored the game-winning score. I don't remember who made the two points. We beat them 8-7. But that would be one. I feel sure that Abner had a hand in it, and I know for sure that we beat them.

That was not the first year we played Houston, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, it was the first year we played Houston at North Texas. I think we played Houston the year before in Houston. We beat them. Abner wasn't... he was a freshman. The next year I think we beat Houston 6-0, if I'm not mistaken.

Marcello:
Evidently, Houston had no qualms or objections about playing a team that had blacks on it.

Shaw:
We never did hear about it. We never did get involved in that end of it. Now as far as the catcalls and things like that, I'm sure he put up with a lot of that, and I'm sure that he took a lot of shots from the opposition. I was only worried about the shots that he took at North Texas (chuckle), but he did take some verbal abuse.

Cummings:
Do you recall maybe being out on the field or standing on the bench and hearing the crowd behind you, yelling things, or maybe some of the players out on the field yelling things?

Shaw:
I don't remember any individual instance, and I never even thought about it until you mentioned it. But there was quite a bit of talking across the line of scrimmage and hollering back and forth about blacks... not in that word. "N*****s," I think, is what they called them. From that point, that probably brought us together more than anything. That would make us create more of a bond because that's something that you've got it to chop them down for. That did happen. But you just forget about it.

Marcello:
And I would assume that a lot of this name-calling was also directed at the white ballplayers on the team.

Shaw:
Oh, gosh, yes. That was where it was directed, primarily.

Cummings:
Any incidents toward you personally?

Shaw:
No, I don't remember any. I don't remember any individually. I was trying to think of one thing that I remember them calling us, and I can't. It was some black school... George Washington Carver or something like that that the other team would holler at us. I don't remember anything like that because he had pretty well established himself. I guess another thing, too, is that maybe it was because we were playing more ball clubs that had blacks on it, too, because we were playing Wichita, Cincinnati, Louisville, and more of the northern teams. They'd play blacks, but they put us in the sorry hotels (chuckles).

Marcello:
Do you recall on road trips any incidents where the team was refused restaurant service or anything because there were blacks?

Shaw:
No, but we just realized that we went to different type of restaurants, different types of hotels, after Abner and company started going on road trips with us. I mentioned that earlier. Let me point out, too, that that was primarily in the North. We didn't have that problem in Houston, for instance.

Cummings:
The coaches told us that after Abner and Leon got there, and they realized they were going to run into those kind of problems, they behind the scenes worked their tails off to avoid any kind of confrontations when eventually it came around to the fall and they had to make those trips because they wanted to keep as much of it from the players as possible.

Shaw:
And I think they did a marvelous job. We didn't even realize it until the latter part of my junior year that... all of a sudden, we realized, "My gosh, the reason we're staying at these dumply places is that they probably won't let Abner and Leon come to the better places!" That was the first time that the team started talking about it: "Well, this is the reason!" We couldn't believe that we... we knew we had stayed in a lot better places in the same cities.

Marcello:
Do you remember when you stopped playing Ole Miss, or maybe I should put it the other way around and say when Ole Miss stopped playing North Texas. It did involve the fact that North Texas had blacks.

Shaw:
I guess that was my junior year. I knew we'd played them up until that the, but, see, as a team we didn't know why we didn't play them. We just knew they weren't on the schedule.

Cummings:
Do you recall a train trip to Houston for a Houston game? Tell me what you remember about that trip?

Shaw:
Well, I started to mention that awhile ago, and I said, "Well, I don't know if that's really valid or not." It seems like it was one trip that we had to take the train or bus, one of the two, and I didn't remember which one it was, so I decided not to even mention it. It seems like there was a trip that we had to take a train because we couldn't fly or we couldn't get the accommodations on the other end to spend the night. Rather than fly and fly back that night, we decided to take a train because they had Pullman cars, and we took the train back. I know it was a long ride wherever we went. The reason was that we couldn't get hotels. I didn't know if the planes wouldn't fly us or if the hotel wouldn't let us in after we got there.

Cummings:
That was what McCain told us. They did not find any place in Houston that would accommodate your team as a whole unit.

Shaw:
I didn't even realize what city it was (chuckle). See, I didn't remember that, other than that I heard about it probably later. See, I don't remember Houston as the town. I thought that some of our Southern places were more accommodating than those in the North because we absolutely had to stay in this... Cincinnati, I remember, was horrible. My freshman year, when we went to Cincinnati, we stayed in a luxurious place, and all of a sudden, boy, we were relegated down below the tracks (laughter).

Cummings:
Along the same lines, do you remember a trip to Memphis? We've been told that on one of the trips -- I don't know which year it was -- that they arrived there, and the hotel that the team was staying in would not accommodate them even though they were previously told otherwise.

Shaw:
Yes, and it seems like to me that they had to put them up somewhere else in town. It was just in a home, or maybe they went to another hotel.

Cummings:
I believe they went to another hotel. I believe they ended up staying at the hotel where Martin Luther King was shot. Apparently, the original hotel told NT officials that, "Yes, when you come in the fall, we will accept your whole team." Then when they arrived there and they got actually in there to check in, they said, "Those two black players cannot stay here."

Shaw:
I remember the incident, but I don't remember the city. I remember it was somewhere... and, you know, I've been thinking Youngstown, Ohio. Now that probably never would have been the fact, but that happened. It must have been Memphis. That was north for an ol' country boy (laughter).

Marcello:
What kind of transformation could you see taking place in Abner from the time he entered North Texas until the time you left? For instance, you mentioned that when he came, he seemed rather shy, quiet, and this sort of thing. What transformation could you see taking place as the goes on?

Shaw:
Well, I think he became... well, he was the leader of our football team his sophomore year because he was on one of the two starting units. But he never assumed leadership over the whole team while I was there. He did his number out on the football field. He did not assume leadership over the whole ball club because there was old leadership there. He succumbed, I guess, if you can call it that, to the structure. The seniors were the leaders, and that was the way it was. That was the way it was all the time I was there. There was always a senior in a leadership role on the team.

Marcello:
Did he always remain the quite, unassuming person?

Shaw:
I don't ever remember... I remember him being jovial and cutting up, because he was really a "cut-up." He was not shy and bashful like when he came in. Yes, he had a good time. He was not in a shell.

Marcello:
Do you recall Abner and Leon entertaining the players on road trips and so on? For instance, we heard examples of them getting on the intercom on airplanes and singing and this sort of thing.

Shaw:
Yes, they did that on several occasions. I remember one coming back from Brigham Young, I think. They entertained us. It was a long trip.

Cummings:
Was it a good show?

Shaw:
It was (laughter). I don't remember what it was, but it was a good show. They were quite talented. I don't remember... it seems like somebody had a guitar. I don't remember which one... I don't think it was either one of them. I think it was another ballplayer. They played the guitar. Maybe it was Vernon Cole. It seems like Vernon did play the guitar. They got back there and sang. We were patronizing Braniff at the time (chuckle).

Cummings:
Do you recall any early publicity that the team was getting because of the presence of Abner, either through the newspapers, magazines, or radio?

Shaw:
I don't recall it. I don't really think that we was that aware of it the first year. I think it was the second year, after he started travelling with the varsity, that we started getting some notoriety. I don't recall all that much outside publicity until his sophomore year, when he started playing some ball. But I wouldn't have heard about it, anyway. I wasn't sitting around listening to the news and reading magazines, unless it was Sports Illustrated. I don't know how much they picked up on it, to tell you the truth. Did they pick up on it a great deal?

Cummings:
National magazines, as far as I can tell, no. The first mention of any kind of integration in athletics was in 1964 when the University of Houston first integrated. They had a special little box in their football issue saying that this black player was breaking the color line at Houston, and they made a pretty big deal out of it. That was six or seven years after North Texas did.

Shaw:
Yes.

Cummings:
And then the following year, in 1965, in their football preview issue, that's when they said that Jerry Levias was going to become the first black player in the Southwest Conference at SMU. Other than that, I haven't been able to find any newspaper clippings or magazine articles or anything on Abner.

Shaw:
I don't remember any. The only notoriety that I think we recognized that we were going through is that we had a black, and that was about it. I don't remember any outside stories. You know, I guess whenever you've gone through it, looking back, you can think of some things... I would have never just come up and thought of the singing, but they did that quite often coming back. But I remember the Brigham Young game.

Marcello:
Do you recall when their quarters burned down over in the black section?

Shaw:
No, I sure don't. When did that happen?

Cummings:
I think it was their freshman year, wasn't it? It was soon after that. I think it was the spring of their freshman year. They'd only been in school for six months, and the house that they lived in burned down.

Shaw:
I'm sure that somebody suspected the people in Denton (laughter). That's certainly off-the-cuff. I don't recall it, no.

Marcello:
Do you recall any townfolks who perhaps went out of their way to make sure that there were no problems when they came? For instance, a man by the name of Jack Grey comes to mind. We've heard him mentioned on several occasions, mainly as a booster who perhaps accompanied the football team on some of its games. He was a leading lawyer in town and knew quite a few of the highway patrolmen and this sort of thing. I: wonder if you knew of anybody along those lines who had ever eased the transition?

Shaw:
The football players didn't have very much association with the populace (chuckle). Not really. I shouldn't say that because that's a reflection on Denton, and I don't want that in here because they were nice to us. We were there two or three weeks before anybody else, and Denton was very nice to athletes. I wouldn't want to leave it like that (chuckle).

Cummings:
Well, after these black students had come into school, do you recall having them in classes? Do you recall any feedback that you got from some of those non-athletic students or teachers?

Shaw:
No.

Cummings:
None of then would come up to you and say, "Hey, you're on the football team. What are you guys doing with a couple of blacks on the team?"

Shaw:
I tried to keep as low a profile as I could. A lot of teachers at North Texas didn't like the athletes (laughter). I shouldn't leave that in here, but a lot of them did like the athletes.

Cummings:
But were the other students whom you were friends with, and the teachers, inquisitive about the situation?

Shaw:
I don't recall.

Cummings:
I would think that with the events we were having in Little Rock and elsewhere, Mississippi and so forth, that the students' curiosity would be fired up.

Shaw:
You know, it: probably was. I probably got some comments about it, but I don't really remember isolating anything that really stood out. I'm sure it was a time of high intensity on what was happening out on the football field -- in Denton and in the school. I'm sure that there were a lot of questions asked, but I just don't recall any of them.

Marcello:
This is again perhaps something that is maybe beyond the realm of your experience, but do you have any impression of Dr. Matthews from your four years at North Texas?

Shaw:
Not really. Dr. Matthews was... talk about "low-key "... he was "low-key." I don't really think he was all that excited about football, but I don't think he was that negative about it, either. I think he was just kind of neutral as far as athletics all across the board went. He may have been a real supportive. I don't how. I didn't run it that circle, for sure. But I just... I don't know. I don't have any impression because I didn't...

Marcello:
He retired, I guess, the year I came to North Texas. I don't know if there is any connection or not (chuckle). The impression that we always had of Dr. Matthews was that he was rather authoritarian person, that he ran the school with an iron hand. Again, I guess what I was leading up to was possibly anything that you might know about his role concerning Abner and Leon.

Shaw:
No, I don't know of anything. I don't really remember him taking a real positive or negative stand on athletics, period. That's the reason I said I didn't think... I think he was kind of neutral on athletics. It may have been because he left that totally up to Coach Mitchell. That would be the natural thing, I'm sure. I don't know.

Cummings:
How long did it take during that 1957 season, when you were a junior and Abner was a sophomore... I mean...

Shaw:
Sophomore.

Cummings:
Yes, that's right. Did the situation get to the point where it was comfortable? Nobody talked about it anymore?

Shaw:
I think that's probably...

Cummings:
... or did that situation even occur when he was a freshman?

Shaw:
I think all that was probably taken care of in his sophomore year because they were all pretty well-established the second year. The only thing they had to do the second year was to get familiar and become more acquainted with the juniors and seniors, see. You have to remember, at that particular time, we had a freshman team. I don't know why I think the freshmen didn't work out with us, but I know they worked out with us. But they worked out a lot on their own. They would work out with us in calisthenics and things like that and on some game role situation, but they were separated from us quite a bit, as I recall. So I think the main thing is more... as far as coming more comfortable around the players, and us becoming more comfortable around him, I think that happened his freshman year. I think he got more acquainted with some of the upperclassmen his sophomore year because he was actually a part of the varsity team.

Cummings:
Yes, I was just curious if there was a point -- be it one week after he came out, during the season, or the end of the season -- where the newness of all these different personalities had worn off, and all these kids felt normal and felt comfortable around each other.

Shaw:
I think there was probably some uncomfortableness even his sophomore and junior year. I'm sure there was in certain situations, but as far as the team is concerned, I think they accepted him by the end of the first year. I really do. I don't think there was any dissatisfaction. In fact, we were pleased that he got the scholarship. He came up there his first year on nothing. As I recall -- I may be wrong -- he got a full scholarship his second year, or the equivalent of that. I don't think there ere any bad feelings about that. In fact, they expected it because he had earned it.

See, we were looking at it from a different point of view. We were looking at it as kids worrying more about our positions than how everybody felt. Right at the beginning, granted, there was a time when everybody was going to try to knock his head off. Then that passed because, you know, we found that "baby slaps back." So, you know, it's just like any other situation; we accepted him as an athlete by the end of that first year because he was a good athlete. He came to stay and play.

Cummings:
I'm sure that after a couple of years, you all were glad that he stayed.

Shaw:
Yes, sure, no question about it. That was the best thing that had ever happened to him and the best thing that ever happened to us because we were a part of a football team that... we had some good football teams here my junior and senior year and his senior year. Three years in a row, we had some nationally-ranked football teams.

Marcello:
Were there any problems that came up when the next group of blacks came in?

Shaw:
Yes, they had their problems. That was one thing about it -- Abner took care of the black problems. They looked to him, and they respected him. He took care of them. That did not spill over as far as the team. If anybody had an altercation with some of the younger blacks, or had a problem, they'd go to Abner, and Abner would take care of it. That was one thing, too, that I think kept us from having fisticuffs. Like, we whites... we'd just fight it out. I don't know why, but they always went to Abner when they had a black problem.

Marcello:
I guess I can imagine some of the white players saying in effect, "See, I knew this is what would happen. We've got a couple on the team, and pretty soon we'll get a whole bunch of them."

Shaw:
I don't really think you'd have had fights between whites and blacks, and you wouldn't have had a mediator. Abner was a strong person. In fact, when anybody had a problem with a black in school that wasn't an athlete, they'd come to Abner and see if Abner would take care of it. And Abner would take care of a lot of it.

I don't remember... I do not remember... and I'm probably wrong... but I don't remember, in the three years that when Abner was there and I was there... that a white had a fight with a black. I'm sure that I'm wrong, but I don't recall it. Maybe I just blocked it out. Other people might remember it, but I don't remember it. I think part of that is because of Abner's leadership. He was probably more aware of what was going on, as far as history is concerned, than some of the rest of us, see. We should have been more aware of it, but he was the focal point, and we weren't. We were kind of observers, and he was the participant.

Marcello:
And from what you've said, I gather that neither he nor Leon came on as a militant, so to speak.

Shaw:
No, none whatsoever. I didn't know Leon that well, obviously.

Marcello:
He wasn't competition, was he?

Shaw:
(Chuckle) Well, that's right, but he also dressed in a different dressing room, so we didn't get to jaw a lot, you know, "rah-rah" stuff, the "B.S." that goes on in the normal event of things. I just never came to know him. I know he could kick a football out of the world if he wanted to.

Cummings:
Relate to us your career as a junior and senior up there -- how much did you play and so forth.

Shaw:
Well, as I recall it, we were swapping back and forth. We had pretty well a twenty-two-man starting unit. We had some good football players. As I recall, we were nationally-ranked my senior year. Bill Groce was another fullback that came on. We were the two that swapped out to start. Mitchell could probably explain why. I don't know exactly why that happened. It seems like there was some rule that you could not... when you left the game, you could not come back that quarter or something. I don't remember what it was. But we had two good football units. Cole was our quarterback. Abner was halfback. A guy I can't remember, the one from Pampa... David Lott was one of those, and I think he graduated the year before.

Cummings:
So you played pretty regularly those last two years after coming back off that injury.

Shaw:
Yes, I played as much as anybody did. As far as being a starter, I started some, and I didn't start some.

Cummings:
Do you recall...

Shaw:
I was not the "stud,"

Cummings:
I started to say... that was my next question.

Shaw:
No, I think Groce made All-Missouri Valley that year, and Abner made All-Missouri Valley. Groce was a fullback. Abner made All-Missouri Valley my senior year. Vernon Cole was Honorable Mention, or he might have made it, I don't know... whatever. So there was several on there. I was not.

Cummings:
You didn't receive any conference award?

Shaw:
No.

Cummings:
But you did get your letter?

Shaw:
Yes, I got my letters (laughter). But they were memorable years, the last two years, because we played as good a competition as we played until Hayden Fry came. Hayden, I feel, really upgraded our football program, and I think he had big things planned for it. I really hated to see us lose him. I don't think we would have lost him, but there was something that happened that he knew we were never going to get into the Southwest Conference, and that's what he wanted in. He wanted in the Southwest Conference. I think the Southwest Conference made a major blunder by not letting North Texas in because a lot of the schools that are in the Southwest Conference financially will just never be able to field the type of team that will be national champion. There's very few SMU's and Baylor's. The Rice's and TCU's are... that's not the subject of our conference, of course, but they will just... I think the time is past for them, financially. It costs too much money to build a football team.

Cummings:
Reflecting back on all this, the twenty years that it has been, have you ever stopped and just thought what part of history this whole time was? What chapter it was, if at all? Was it important as far as racial history is concerned?

Shaw:
I hadn't thought a great deal about it. I realized by my senior year that Abner was going to be a good football player, and I knew he'd play in the pros. But then North Texas always sent a lot of boys to the pros, so if he made it big in the pros would probably decide if it was going to be a momentous thing. I had not thought of the racial part being involved, as far as him being the first... I realized he was the first black by then, but I didn't realize that that would be that big of a deal. Now what I really think made it more important was the fact that he was very successful in the pros. He played so many years in the pros, and he got so much recognition for it. That made all of it gel back to being more important. There's a lot of others... Tommy Runnels played in the pros. There were a lot of guys that I played with that went to the pros and did well, but Abner's different because he was black. He was the first black at North Texas... in Texas, I guess. From that standpoint, I think about it; otherwise, not a great deal.

Cummings:
Since I've gotten onto the subject, it just amazes me that, like yourself, a lot of these people who were there, the coaches and the players, they really didn't think that much about it. They don't sit there and say, "Hey, I was a part of a historical movement, a break in the color line."

Marcello:
Nobody but historians think like that (chuckle).

Shaw:
I guess that's right. I guess this is not a very good correlation, I guess, but it's kind of like being in Pearl Harbor whenever they bombed Pearl Harbor. The only thing you thought about at the time was getting out alive. The only thing that I really thought about was playing and hoping he was not in my position, and sure enough, he was! Thank goodness, he played the other halfback position. So that was primarily our concern through those years. Now, reflecting back, we try to probably make more importance to it than it really was sometimes, but we realize the importance of it.

Cummings:
That's what I figure. At the time, you don't think about it at all, but when it's past, it's too late to make any big deal about it.

Shaw:
That's right. That's the way a lot of our Founding Fathers was, you know. What they were doing was just trying to seek out a living and make this whole thing work, this system work, and in a hundred years, people look back, and the history's there. You're going to be the one writing the history, so a lot of the responsibility is up to you, unfortunately (laughter). No, fortunately, I'd say.

I don't think you think a great deal about it. Just like the example I gave, you don't think about it then, but you reflect back and you think, "Well, I'm glad." And I am. I'm glad that I knew him. I'm glad that we had the experiences because life is an experience. That's what we try to tell our kids, you know. It's not the wrong way. But experience life. You don't have to go out and try this and try that if you experience things as they go on. I guess that's what we did during that period, those of us that participated. We were part of the experience, and we enjoyed it. Well, we didn't enjoy it too much. Each one of us had a job to do, and some of them did it better than the rest of us. That's the way life is.

Cummings:
Do you keep up with any of those guys? When was the last time you've seen them?

Shaw:
I was talking to Edgar Gray a couple of weeks ago. Eddie Patton, my old roommate, out here is a coach at South Grand Prairie, and I see Jerry every Christmas, if not sooner. Jerry is my cousin. Louis Whitson, my other roommate... and Jerry Russell is an attorney in Dallas. In fact, I see him... I've run into him in an airport in Chicago, you know. There's a lot of different stories there, you know. Jerry used to be a state representative. Me and Whitson and Jerry Russell, after our senior year, after our eligibility ran out, they let us move out of the dorm. So we moved out into a home and had a blast. We had a lot of fun.

Cummings:
What about Abner? When was the last time you've seen or talked to him?

Shaw:
Well, I guess the last time I saw Abner was at North Texas at Homecoming one time. I ran into him, and I visited with him for quite awhile. Where was it in Dallas? I remember... we sat there and visited with him. At one time, he was living in New York. I guess he was still playing pro ball.

Cummings:
For the Jets?

Shaw:
He was living in New York. I don't know. I never ran into Leon. I don't know if I'd even know him if I ran into him. The other guys, I run into them all the time. Dennis Shaw is over in Dallas in the correctional... I forgot what he is. He's the person... the guys who get out on parole will have to report to... what is that?

Cummings:
Parole officer.

Shaw:
Parole officer, thank you. Don Smith's over here with the North Texas Council of Governments. Weldon Wright's with the Arlington School System. Tommy Runnels lives right around the corner up here. He's a builder out here.

Cummings:
You still call him "Little N*****?"

Shaw:
No, I never did, but I knew why they called him that. I forgot why. They told us, and I knew at the time, but I don't know why now. I guess those are about the only ones I see anymore, or at least periodically. Just like everything else, you know, you just spin out in different directions.

Marcello:
Well, Mr. Shaw, we want to thank you very much for having given us your comments and observations. You've said a lot of very important and, I think, interesting things. I'm sure that this will be a very valuable contribution to the history of North Texas and to the history of desegregation as a whole.

Shaw:
Since they gave me my education, I figure I owe them something (laughter).

Cummings:
Well, we sure do appreciate it.

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